The Glade 4.0

Anybody who's taken either of these? I'm stuck in a dilemma for summer/fall classes. My major is Physiology. I need A&P to progress to upper division classes. I need O-chem as part of my major as well. Would appreciate advice from anybody whose taken these.

Scenario 1: Take A&P 1 and 2 during both summer sessions (2 5-week courses).
Disadvantage: My life would be hell for 10 weeks.
Advantage: A large chunk of classes open to me immediately. My chances become better to take a full-load without being overwhelmed due to class difficulty on top of full-time work and an infant son.

Scenario 2: Take A&P 1 and O-chem 1 during Fall
Disadvantage: I did 2 sciences plus another class last semester and it was really rough. A lot of things were slipping toward the end of that semester and I ended up getting a B in one of those sciences. I can't afford to be getting more B's for my science GPA. This probably limits me to just 2 sciences for the semester.
Advantage: I will have knocked out all my science pre-req's. I have a lighter load but I probably add at least another semester's worth of school when I finally get the stupid piece of paper.

Scenario 3: Take A&P 1, but not O-chem during Fall. Attempt to fill out rest of schedule with 2-3 other courses.
Disadvantage: Schedules are getting tough due to lack of schedule variety (mostly business hours) at the University. This also eliminates the "easier" 300-level courses quicker when they could be filling out my schedule with them later when I take the 400-level stuff.
Advantage: Not stressing about sciences.

I'm really stressing about this. Any perspectives and/or experiences anyone would like to relate would be great.

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The Dude abides.

I've never taken either, but Organic Chemistry 1 is just short of physics and calculus on the list of classes I most often hear biology and pharmacy students ***** about. My understanding is that it's a "weed-out" course.

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Buckle your pants or they might fall down.

OChem is rough. Everywhere. Honestly though, it's a lot about how most pre-med students study for it that makes the most complaints. OChem, Physics and Calculus are the first classes most of them hit that require you to think and understand more than memorize. I think older/steadier students do much better in them.

Are you still pre-med?

Look at the number of courses you need depending on either course... I'm betting you should take OChem first. If you're pre-med, you'll have 3 more semesters of courses with an OChem pre-req (med school requirements) OChem 2, Biochem 1 and Biochem 2.

Are the labs at your school part of the course, or separate registration? If separate, you can put off taking the OChem lab, and that will lighten the load if you decide to take them together.

It's very doable... I took OChem in the same semester with 18 other hours of math/science classes... But it's pretty brutal.

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Darksiege: You are not a god damned vulcan homie.

I found Organic Chem really tough. On the other hand A&P was easy for me..it's memorization. I would recommend Scenario 1. Sure it would be a tough 10 weeks and a crappy summer, but it would free you up in the Fall to devote more time to OChem and get a better grade than you might if you had to spend alot of time memorizing.

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Dream as if you'll live forever...
...Live as if you'll die tomorrow

Vivere Senza Rimpianti

Still pre-med, yes.

I'm not sure on the separate lab parts. They didn't allow it for GenChem so I was just kinda assuming it's the same for O-chem. I've got an appointment with an advisor so I'll definitely ask about that.

Bio-chem isn't necessary for med school or MCAT so I don't need to worry about that, at least for the immediate future.

O-chem is necessary but isn't holding me from taking anything else. A&P is the one I have to take next. I just don't know how intense it is (I know it's tons of memorization and less conceptual for the anatomy part). And is it so intense on top of the O-chem intensity to outweigh taking them together?

I'm trying to balance difficulty, risk, and time.

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The Dude abides.

Have you taken any chemistry before? Way back when I took organic I had just had AP chem in high school and I didn't find it to be that difficult. I imagine A&P will take a bunch of your time for memorizing stuff so maybe if you don't have previous chem experience split them up.

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I met this six-year-old child, with this blank, pale, emotionless face and, the blackest eyes... the devil's eyes. I spent eight years trying to reach him, and then another seven trying to keep him locked up because I realized what was living behind that boy's eyes was purely and simply... evil

Well, I'm taking Gen Chem 2 right now and doing really well (highest grade in class at the moment). I got a B in it last semester. While that's ultimately my fault, I honestly blame administrative barriers and poor structure for putting me just into the B range. There was seriously homework on 3 different websites, a lab TA that changed in the middle of the semester, and tests written by the department that included things not really covered in lecture.

I understood the material I studied just fine. It was missing homeworks and not being prepared for things barely mentioned that shafted me. I do well and really chewing on the conceptual parts of sciences. I think that's why I did well in Physics. The only places that tend to shaft me is math errors when I have too little time to be careful.

Is O-chem a really different way of looking at things? Is it less math, more concepts? Less memorization, more understanding of systems?

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The Dude abides.

I loved O-Chem. It gets such a bad reputation. It really is about memorizing reactions and how to form new products. Some of it requires a decent chemistry background, but if you're good at logic-type puzzles and can memorize reactions, Orgo is a piece of cake. A&P is a ton of memorization. There was no way in hell I was taking that after the first few weeks if I didn't need it. If you're not in any great rush, I'd do scenario 3. If you're in a rush to get it done, do scenario 1 and knock out A&P right away. The other weakness with scenario 1 is certain med schools may look down at you for taking it as a summer course. I always feel the material learned in summer courses isn't quite as substantial as a Spring or Fall semester course because they're trying to jam so much in so quickly. It all becomes a blur.

OChem vs Gen Chem is less math, requires a deeper and less linear thought process. Lots more memorization... but you only memorize your tools. Like memorizing equations for physics or math, just lots more of them. I found Ochem very similar to higher level mathematics- you have to look for the right solution, it's not just plug and chug equations. I found myself quite suited to both.

For me, pulling a high A in Ochem was a few hours of studying before each test and generally keeping up- for my wife a low A was 10-20 hours of studying before each test and lots of working homework problems. It really depends on how you think.

OChem will be holding you back from the second semester OChem, but if you aren't going higher (biochem) it's not that big of a deal. I'm not sure what courses you have to take in physiology, but some of the higher end molecular/microbiology courses will probably require organic chem as pre-reqs... I know most of ours do.

I guess the requirements have changed since I was pre-med... The schools I was looking at were 8 hours Gen Chem, 8 hours OChem and at least 4 hours of Biochem, with 8 preferred.

For the MCAT, both analytical and biochemistry courses will help you immensely. Honestly, for pre-med... If physiology wasn't your major, there's no way I'd take A&P... It is so not worth it. Especially if you're not at a school that lets you work on actual cadavers in lab as undergrads.

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Darksiege: You are not a god damned vulcan homie.

I agree with you mostly, Nephyr. A&P for med school isn't nearly as important as biochemistry. Though I do disagree with you on Analytical. There isn't anything substantial from Analytical Chemistry that I needed when I took my practice MCAT's. There isn't really a lot of anatomy on the MCAT (outside of Biology-based anatomy) because you're expected to do a heavy amount of that work in your first year. But biochemistry is invaluable. In fact, I would argue a lot of the chemistry focuses on Biochemistry, even over Gen Chem or Orgo. All three are important though ultimately. Orgo wasn't a pre-requisite for anything except Molecular and Cellular Biology and Biochemistry at my college and the upper level chemistry courses, of course. Microbiology could be taken without it.

Pre-Med is a grist mill to weed out the weak. Hell for 10 weeks is part of the process, take A&P during the summer and O-Chem in the fall.

Grind grind grind. Just take whatever free time you do get and spend it either sleeping or playing with your child. Tell your wife you love her at least three times a day.

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The U. S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself. B. Franklin

"A mind needs books like a sword needs a whetstone." -- Tyrion Lannister, A Game of Thrones

It doesn't count if you do it Beetle Juice style.

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 

When did you take the MCAT? I wonder if it was a year based thing. The year I took it, probably half of the "physical sciences" questions were things that came straight out of my second year Analytical course. I know a lot of the "balance" of the questions has to do with the year. Most of the questions could have been answered with something else, but really, they were right out of our analytical textbook which made it very easy.

Personally, I'm a big fan of encouraging people to major in Chemical or Biomedical Engineering, or Chemistry if they want to go to med school. Seems to make the apps a lot more competitive, and generally higher MCAT scores.

I do know that all of my friends in med school said if they had it to do over again, they wouldn't have taken undergrad A&P... That it really wasn't as helpful as most other courses. On the flip side, everyone that took the two course series of Biochem said it was one of the most helpful courses they had taken- it covered all the material that you'd hit in your 1st year Biochem course at med school, and really took it down a notch from "brutal" to "manageable". Obviously not a choice for you with your major, though.

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Darksiege: You are not a god damned vulcan homie.

Never officially took it. I believe the practice tests I took were in 2003-2004 or so. I decided against going to medical school. I just didn't feel it was for me in the end. All I know is it was heavy-handed on the biochemistry and molecular biology when I was practicing for it.

I only took the practice tests too... Same thing happened to me. Decided to stick with Chemistry instead of going to Medical School, at least for now.

Mine were around 2006, when they were restructuring the test- maybe that was the difference. But yeah, the Biological sections were quite heavy on Biochem. I had no biology background, but still managed to do fine with just the biochem/organic chem background I had.

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Darksiege: You are not a god damned vulcan homie.

Well, I reviewed the curriculum and it turns out that biochem is in my list of 400-level courses. So I will end up taking that it seems.

My physics prof who I talk to regularly seems to think I can do A&P over the summer but I'm still worried. I spoke to my advisor and he gave me the e-mail for the prof that teaches it. So I've e-mailed her about it.

Also, it appears that o-chem does allow labs to be taken later. So I'm feeling a little easier about it. I could just attempt to do the lectures over the summer if A&P seems like too much.

I appreciate the feedback. It gave me some good things to consider.

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The Dude abides.

I have a friend who was doing a two-year radiology program before he switched to a CCNA. He got As in both A&P courses during the time when the two of us were at our heaviest EQ playing. He was also just starting a divorce, and his life was pretty much in complete shambles. At the time he was getting maybe an hour or two of sleep a night until he crashed out at the end of the week. He got As.

I can't see A&P busting your *** that hard. Judging from the PMs you've sent me, and the posts you've made here, you're a serious student. I think you're making this out to be a much bigger hurdle than it really is.

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Buckle your pants or they might fall down.

Don't separate up the labs if you can avoid it. The labs usually coincide at least decently well with the material you're studying that semester. If you break them up, it's sometimes hard to remember the early principles you learned in the lecture. I wouldn't recommend doing O-Chem over the summer either. That's such a critical course to any of the biology- or chemistry-based majors.

Really? I would actually suggest breaking the labs off from the lecture.

A lot of places they *try* to line them up, but in reality the lab will always be behind the lectures. I wouldn't recommend waiting too long, but I'd actually take Org1 lab with Org2, and then Org2 lab the semester after.

But yeah, I wouldn't take them over the summer. I used to TA for the summer labs, and they rush through way, way too much.

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Darksiege: You are not a god damned vulcan homie.

A lab being a week behind the lecture is far preferable to being a full semester (perhaps more) behind. This is especially true for people who aren't majoring in that field. A lot of times you're also looking at a student who took the lecture in the spring and had the entire summer for stuff to atrophy. The first EE lab kills our MEs for precisely this reason. A semester after they took circuit analysis, they don't remember most of it.

Taking Organic 2 while you take the Organic 1 lab is good, because you're still thinking about organic chemistry. Now, what about someone who doesn't have to take Organic 2?

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Buckle your pants or they might fall down.

That I could see. Lining them up with the next semester I mean. But I wouldn't take the labs the next year or something along those lines. I forgot a lot of the basics I learned in Orgo 1 by the year I was taking Biochemistry (Fall of one year to Fall of next year). I still liked taking the labs with the lecture. I always felt like it gave me the best experience. The only time I didn't was Biochemistry. We had to take the lecture in Fall semester and then the laboratory, aptly named Experimental Biochemistry Laboratory, the next semester. I felt like I had to do a lot of reviewing, especially in the beginning of that laboratory semester.

The lab being a week behind the lecture isn't a big deal. The lecture being a week or two behind the lab, can be. I guess it also depends on the kind of student- lots of our labs were spaced off a semester, and I never really seemed to have any problems. I think I took Analytical Chem lab 2 years after I took the lecture, and it was pretty easy to quickly brush up on what I needed. I think it's very different for majors/non-majors, though.

For someone who doesn't have to take Org2? It would depend on the next semester, honestly. But yeah, I'd probably take it with Org1 if you aren't taking any chem at all the next semester. And if you're moving on to Biochem/Lab, I certainly wouldn't try to take Biochem Lab and Org1 lab the same semester.

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Darksiege: You are not a god damned vulcan homie.

We took Biochem/Lab in the same semester.. And then Adv. Biochem the next semester.

Our physical chem labs were staggered- 3 lecture courses, 2 labs... But the lab was mainly on the material from the previous semester. So you took Pchem2 with Pchem 1 lab, and Pchem2 lab with Pchem 3.

Our physics labs were always off a semester- I had to get special permission to take Physics 2 lab as a corequisite to Physics 2. Normally you'd take physics 1, then physics 2/physics 1 lab and then physics 2 lab.

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Darksiege: You are not a god damned vulcan homie.

Well, I'm diving in. And it turns out things won't be quite the hell I thought they'd be when I road-mapped out my schedule. Latest I'll get home is close to 8pm only 3 days a week. Totally manageable and acceptable to the wife and employer.

Coro,
That post about your friend really helped put that into perspective. Thanks for that.

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The Dude abides.