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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 3:57 pm 
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Turns out he was in the early stages of Parkinson's disease, and hadn't gone public with it yet.

While treatments have improved a great deal since Parkinson's claimed my grandfather, it still is 100% terminal and leaves its victims with a seriously reduced quality of life, and an ultimately excruciating death.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 6:23 pm 
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30 Million in debt
Still battling drug addiction
Diagnosed with Parkinson's

Not surprising he was battling depression as well. In particular the Parkinson's diagnosis must have been daunting given how it affects the mind.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 6:28 pm 
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His wife said that he was sober.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:00 pm 
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First of all, all life is terminal due to aging. Having a terminal illness is just another disease on top of that. With Parkinson's you can still play video games, watch tv and movies, spend time with people, etc. Also debt is almost irrelevant when your income is as high as Robin William's with just a little bit of work. Lastly, the act of taking his own life was extremely selfish and it seems he had little regard for his family. Why not just kill them too? Killing yourself isn't a far cry from killing your family.


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Aizle wrote:
30 Million in debt


??

Guess I missed that bit on the news.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 10:26 am 
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And this thread is why I finally decided to put Lex on ignore.

In other news.

http://brianlord.org/2014/08/12/a-littl ... ams-story/

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Years ago I learned a very cool thing about Robin Williams, and I couldn’t watch a movie of his afterward without thinking of it. I never actually booked Robin Williams for an event, but I came close enough that his office sent over his rider. For those outside of the entertainment industry, a rider lists out an artist’s specific personal and technical needs for hosting them for an event- anything from bottled water and their green room to sound and lighting requirements. You can learn a lot about a person from their rider. This is where rocks bands list their requirement for green M&Ms (which is actually a surprisingly smart thing to do). This is also where a famous environmentalist requires a large gas-guzzling private jet to fly to the event city, but then requires an electric or hybrid car to take said environmentalist to the event venue when in view of the public.

When I got Robin Williams’ rider, I was very surprised by what I found. He actually had a requirement that for every single event or film he did, the company hiring him also had to hire a certain number of homeless people and put them to work. I never watched a Robin Williams movie the same way after that. I’m sure that on his own time and with his own money, he was working with these people in need, but he’d also decided to use his clout as an entertainer to make sure that production companies and event planners also learned the value of giving people a chance to work their way back. I wonder how many production companies continued the practice into their next non-Robin Williams project, as well as how many people got a chance at a job and the pride of earning an income, even temporarily, from his actions. He was a great multiplier of his impact. Let’s hope that impact lives on without him. Thanks, Robin Williams- not just for laughs, but also for a cool example.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 11:18 am 
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Thanks for sharing that, FarSky. That's an awesome tidbit that I would not otherwise have known.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 1:41 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 3:06 pm 
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Very moving "farewell message" using his final monologue from What Dreams May Come (ignoring, for the moment, the theology in that movie and its relevance to the current situation) laid over clips from other of his movies:



Last edited by RangerDave on Fri Aug 15, 2014 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 3:44 pm 
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Oh, man, I forgot about the theme in that movie. Ouch. As for "disgusting theology" - yawn.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 4:03 pm 
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Sorry, wasn't trying to trigger a religious debate. I'm just not a fan of the "suicides go to hell" concept and assumed without thinking that would be fairly universally agreed here, but on reflection I realize that perhaps it's not. Anyway, disparaging remark withdrawn.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 4:39 pm 
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To sidestep the whole issue...that monologue is from the end of Jack, not What Dreams May Come.

Image

Edit: Also -

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 12:56 pm 
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My favorite tribute so far:


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Lex Luthor wrote:
Lastly, the act of taking his own life was extremely selfish and it seems he had little regard for his family.


I used to think like this, but I don't anymore. My experiences have changed me. Some of them I've discussed with others, even publicly. But there are others I do not speak of.

There's a scene at the end of "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe" in which the Professor cautions the children:
Quote:
And don't mention it to anyone else unless you find that they've had adventures of the same sort themselves. What's that? How will you know? Oh, you'll know all right. Odd things they say -- even their looks -- will let the secret out.

The realm of the suicidal is not the realm of the living. It connects to ours. You can get there from here. But it is a separate and alien universe with its own set of rules. There's an unspoken code among those who have seen it. The first rule of Death Club is you don't talk about Death Club. Not fully, anyway.

It isn't just that the experiences are too personal. That's true, but anyone still alive to talk about it has suffered worse indignities than that. You don't talk about it because you want to shield the world from what you know. I know this won't make much sense to a lot of people, but to fully understand suicidal ideation is to experience it and vice versa. You can think I'm being melodramatic if you wish, but knowledge of that place is dangerous. Some of the thoughts and feelings that followed me out of that world will probably haunt me to the end of my days -- not merely because they are terrible thoughts, but because I still cannot successfully answer them. Escaping that world entails a certain amount of self-deception and willful forgetfulness. I'll try to offer a glimpse of what I saw there, but if I really thought I could offer anything more than that, I would refuse.

Is suicide a selfish act? In one sense, yes. But whenever this subject comes up, two things immediately come to my mind. The first is a news article I read in high school. I was active in speech and debate. One of the tournament events was extemporaneous speaking. One particular day, I was helping file articles in our domestic extemp bins. In one magazine, a series of stories about wildfires caught my eye. One of them told of the discovery of two bodies -- one male, one female -- lying by a stump outside of a home that had been swept up in the fires. I don't remember why they hadn't evacuated. It doesn't seem relevant in light of the following truth: it wasn't the fire or smoke that had killed them; they died from self-inflicted shotgun wounds. They had been hemmed in by the fire. At some point they realized that escape was impossible. They chose to kill themselves rather than endure the agony of the flames.

The other image that springs to mind is a bear trap. They say that animals caught in such traps have been known to gnaw their own leg off in order to escape. It's horrible to think about it, but here's a truth: trapped in conditions of sufficient suffering, an animal will do literally anything to escape the pain. It's no different for the human couple in the woods. It's no different for any of us. There's a price of pain that would buy your life. This is one of the ugly truths I brought back from the other world. Don't believe me? Good. I hope that you don't. This is one of the illusions that keeps us anchored in the realm of the living. For God's sake, cling to it if you can.

But here's the sticking point: even under these circumstances, you can't really dispute the selfishness of it. That couple in the woods almost assuredly had friends, families, people who would suffer in their absence. No doubt, the couple knew about this and even consciously thought about it during their final moments. But it wasn't enough. In the end, the weight of their own pain exceeded the weight of those obligations. They chose themselves. And yet, whether or not we agree with their actions, I think few of us can find terribly much fault. It was an act of self-interest, yes, but it feels wrong to call them selfish. What choice did they really have? The flames were real and their situation was hopeless.

What we understand about them, we do not understand about the suicidal. We cannot see the flames. We do not see the certainty in their doom. It doesn't make sense that these things could be real. I pray to God that it never does make sense to you, because that would mean you are in a very deadly place. But try to imagine for just a moment that the pain a suicidal person feels is every bit as real and terrible and tangible as that wildfire. Imagine that this pain is utterly inescapable. Know with cold surety that there will be no rescuers for you. Know also that your present pain -- which is already intolerable -- will only grow with time. Know that you bring nothing but misery and darkness to everyone who has the misfortune to get close to you. And now imagine that you are expected to endure that ever-increasing pain forever and that if you somehow manage it, you'll only succeed in bringing more pain and misery upon your loved ones. You're no fool; you know that killing yourself is going to hurt them, but surely it's kinder to them than the alternative. Know that the task is too great for you, for you are weak, mortal, and small. Know that when the burden becomes too great, you will not find aid, for you are unloved and unlovable.

Maybe they shouldn't be feeling any of these things. Maybe if they were a stronger person they wouldn't. Hell, maybe even some of them deserve to feel these things because their own choices have lead them to this place. You can argue all of these things. You can even be right about them, but none of it matters any longer. It's like arguing about why the couple in the woods weren't evacuated. It might be instructive to others, but it doesn't change anything. Whether or not these things ought to be real, they are real.

I came across this anonymous prose years ago. I think it says it better than I can:

Quote:
There was a time when I had strong feelings about suicide. It was completely beyond my understanding that someone could prefer death to life.
I'm not religious. I don't believe in any concept of an afterlife that permits consciousness and awareness after the body's demise. As such, I failed to understand how anyone could find relief in death.

"It's not," I thought to myself, "as if you're going to kill yourself and then suddenly think 'ah, that's better'". Even if nothingness was better than the current situation, there was no way you were going to be aware of the nothingness and that it was somehow better. So what was the point? Life is clearly better than death, right? Just as something is better than nothing. Right?

There we were, my strong feelings and I. My "superiority" those who thought they always had death as a way out.

My friend Pete committed suicide last April.

"Why" is not the first question people ask when you tell them your friend has killed himself. That's tactless and everybody knows it. But eventually the question is posed; when the time is right, when things can be discussed rationally.

I'm not going to tell you why. It doesn't matter, really. The easy, short response is "he was sad". The longer, real answer requires (of course) a complex analysis of Pete's life, a lot of assumption and guesswork, facts related second or third-hand, and personal details that it's just not right to tell the world at large. And, anyway, the short answer seems a lot more meaningful.

At the end of the day, Pete is dead because he was sad.

That stupid, banal, gargantuan understatement is the only way I can understand it. Because what I can't understand, what there's no possible way for me to fathom, is the depth of his sadness.

And that's why my strong feelings about suicide have evaporated. I am ignorant. I was arrogant.

At Pete's funeral his older brother Mat, my friend...my brother in all but blood, read a eulogy. He loves Pete so much. And hearing his expression of love and grief, his words of joy and pain, was the most emotionally devastating thing I've ever experienced.

I was sad, but Pete was sadder. And that's all I can know.

I have no right to judge suicide. There is nothing in my experience that has reduced me to the despair that Pete felt. The only opinion I can have, all I can say is, "right now I have no reason to kill myself". Right now at this moment, I don't. And I don't forsee it. But that's as far as I'll go.

Pete wasn't being selfish; he was sad. Pete wasn't begging for attention; he was sad. Pete wasn't being escapist; he was sad. Pete wasn't trying to hurt us; he was sad.

And now he's dead.

That's all there is to it, really.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 12:36 am 
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Stathol wrote:
Lex Luthor wrote:
Lastly, the act of taking his own life was extremely selfish and it seems he had little regard for his family.


I used to think like this, but I don't anymore. My experiences have changed me. Some of them I've discussed with others, even publicly. But there are others I do not speak of.

There's a scene at the end of "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe" in which the Professor cautions the children:
Quote:
And don't mention it to anyone else unless you find that they've had adventures of the same sort themselves. What's that? How will you know? Oh, you'll know all right. Odd things they say -- even their looks -- will let the secret out.

The realm of the suicidal is not the realm of the living. It connects to ours. You can get there from here. But it is a separate and alien universe with its own set of rules. There's an unspoken code among those who have seen it. The first rule of Death Club is you don't talk about Death Club. Not fully, anyway.

It isn't just that the experiences are too personal. That's true, but anyone still alive to talk about it has suffered worse indignities than that. You don't talk about it because you want to shield the world from what you know. I know this won't make much sense to a lot of people, but to fully understand suicidal ideation is to experience it and vice versa. You can think I'm being melodramatic if you wish, but knowledge of that place is dangerous. Some of the thoughts and feelings that followed me out of that world will probably haunt me to the end of my days -- not merely because they are terrible thoughts, but because I still cannot successfully answer them. Escaping that world entails a certain amount of self-deception and willful forgetfulness. I'll try to offer a glimpse of what I saw there, but if I really thought I could offer anything more than that, I would refuse.

Is suicide a selfish act? In one sense, yes. But whenever this subject comes up, two things immediately come to my mind. The first is a news article I read in high school. I was active in speech and debate. One of the tournament events was extemporaneous speaking. One particular day, I was helping file articles in our domestic extemp bins. In one magazine, a series of stories about wildfires caught my eye. One of them told of the discovery of two bodies -- one male, one female -- lying by a stump outside of a home that had been swept up in the fires. I don't remember why they hadn't evacuated. It doesn't seem relevant in light of the following truth: it wasn't the fire or smoke that had killed them; they died from self-inflicted shotgun wounds. They had been hemmed in by the fire. At some point they realized that escape was impossible. They chose to kill themselves rather than endure the agony of the flames.

The other image that springs to mind is a bear trap. They say that animals caught in such traps have been known to gnaw their own leg off in order to escape. It's horrible to think about it, but here's a truth: trapped in conditions of sufficient suffering, an animal will do literally anything to escape the pain. It's no different for the human couple in the woods. It's no different for any of us. There's a price of pain that would buy your life. This is one of the ugly truths I brought back from the other world. Don't believe me? Good. I hope that you don't. This is one of the illusions that keeps us anchored in the realm of the living. For God's sake, cling to it if you can.

But here's the sticking point: even under these circumstances, you can't really dispute the selfishness of it. That couple in the woods almost assuredly had friends, families, people who would suffer in their absence. No doubt, the couple knew about this and even consciously thought about it during their final moments. But it wasn't enough. In the end, the weight of their own pain exceeded the weight of those obligations. They chose themselves. And yet, whether or not we agree with their actions, I think few of us can find terribly much fault. It was an act of self-interest, yes, but it feels wrong to call them selfish. What choice did they really have? The flames were real and their situation was hopeless.

What we understand about them, we do not understand about the suicidal. We cannot see the flames. We do not see the certainty in their doom. It doesn't make sense that these things could be real. I pray to God that it never does make sense to you, because that would mean you are in a very deadly place. But try to imagine for just a moment that the pain a suicidal person feels is every bit as real and terrible and tangible as that wildfire. Imagine that this pain is utterly inescapable. Know with cold surety that there will be no rescuers for you. Know also that your present pain -- which is already intolerable -- will only grow with time. Know that you bring nothing but misery and darkness to everyone who has the misfortune to get close to you. And now imagine that you are expected to endure that ever-increasing pain forever and that if you somehow manage it, you'll only succeed in bringing more pain and misery upon your loved ones. You're no fool; you know that killing yourself is going to hurt them, but surely it's kinder to them than the alternative. Know that the task is too great for you, for you are weak, mortal, and small. Know that when the burden becomes too great, you will not find aid, for you are unloved and unlovable.

Maybe they shouldn't be feeling any of these things. Maybe if they were a stronger person they wouldn't. Hell, maybe even some of them deserve to feel these things because their own choices have lead them to this place. You can argue all of these things. You can even be right about them, but none of it matters any longer. It's like arguing about why the couple in the woods weren't evacuated. It might be instructive to others, but it doesn't change anything. Whether or not these things ought to be real, they are real.

I came across this anonymous prose years ago. I think it says it better than I can:

Quote:
There was a time when I had strong feelings about suicide. It was completely beyond my understanding that someone could prefer death to life.
I'm not religious. I don't believe in any concept of an afterlife that permits consciousness and awareness after the body's demise. As such, I failed to understand how anyone could find relief in death.

"It's not," I thought to myself, "as if you're going to kill yourself and then suddenly think 'ah, that's better'". Even if nothingness was better than the current situation, there was no way you were going to be aware of the nothingness and that it was somehow better. So what was the point? Life is clearly better than death, right? Just as something is better than nothing. Right?

There we were, my strong feelings and I. My "superiority" those who thought they always had death as a way out.

My friend Pete committed suicide last April.

"Why" is not the first question people ask when you tell them your friend has killed himself. That's tactless and everybody knows it. But eventually the question is posed; when the time is right, when things can be discussed rationally.

I'm not going to tell you why. It doesn't matter, really. The easy, short response is "he was sad". The longer, real answer requires (of course) a complex analysis of Pete's life, a lot of assumption and guesswork, facts related second or third-hand, and personal details that it's just not right to tell the world at large. And, anyway, the short answer seems a lot more meaningful.

At the end of the day, Pete is dead because he was sad.

That stupid, banal, gargantuan understatement is the only way I can understand it. Because what I can't understand, what there's no possible way for me to fathom, is the depth of his sadness.

And that's why my strong feelings about suicide have evaporated. I am ignorant. I was arrogant.

At Pete's funeral his older brother Mat, my friend...my brother in all but blood, read a eulogy. He loves Pete so much. And hearing his expression of love and grief, his words of joy and pain, was the most emotionally devastating thing I've ever experienced.

I was sad, but Pete was sadder. And that's all I can know.

I have no right to judge suicide. There is nothing in my experience that has reduced me to the despair that Pete felt. The only opinion I can have, all I can say is, "right now I have no reason to kill myself". Right now at this moment, I don't. And I don't forsee it. But that's as far as I'll go.

Pete wasn't being selfish; he was sad. Pete wasn't begging for attention; he was sad. Pete wasn't being escapist; he was sad. Pete wasn't trying to hurt us; he was sad.

And now he's dead.

That's all there is to it, really.

Two words spring to mind: "This." And "Bravo."


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:46 am 
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Stathol wrote:
Is suicide a selfish act? In one sense, yes. But whenever this subject comes up, two things immediately come to my mind. The first is a news article I read in high school. I was active in speech and debate. One of the tournament events was extemporaneous speaking. One particular day, I was helping file articles in our domestic extemp bins. In one magazine, a series of stories about wildfires caught my eye. One of them told of the discovery of two bodies -- one male, one female -- lying by a stump outside of a home that had been swept up in the fires. I don't remember why they hadn't evacuated. It doesn't seem relevant in light of the following truth: it wasn't the fire or smoke that had killed them; they died from self-inflicted shotgun wounds. They had been hemmed in by the fire. At some point they realized that escape was impossible. They chose to kill themselves rather than endure the agony of the flames.


This is actually a very good example to bring up. I can't know for sure, but I can guess that these people were not "suicidal" in the traditional sense, but rather realized their situation and decided how to go about the inevitable. On the surface, I could say that no, this doesn't relate, because there was no choice in the question of death, rather only a question in the manner. It wasn't really classic suicide. So they did not choose death, death chose them.

But it gets to the larger point. You can say that everyone has a threshold of pain they cannot tolerate, and I can say with confidence that very, very few alive have reached this, and so they won't understand. But your story can be considered from a more logical place - would you rather burn or be shot? It is hard to consider that story without coming to the conclusion that yes, under certain circumstances, you might be able to kill yourself. The only reason to refuse would be concern over one's soul, which is not a universal, physical concern.

Anyway, once that conclusion's been reached, you really have to look at the situation a little differently. If you don't understand, if you don't see it, you may at least be able to understand that it's possible. And once you do, it becomes very clear that perhaps it's not the best idea to judge another's pain - or their circumstances.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 12:19 pm 
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Suicide takes a lot of value away from the rest of your family. That's why it's extremely selfish. It shows you cared more about relieving your personal sadness than other external things and people.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 12:22 pm 
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Who are you trying to fool, Lex? You don't even have a set of morals, and you're lambasting someone for being selfish? You don't give a single ****.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 12:26 pm 
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You own your life including the decision to end it. It's nobody else's business really.

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Elmarnieh wrote:
You own your life including the decision to end it. It's nobody else's business really.


That doesn't make it unselfish.


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How can doing what you wish with your most personal of property be selfish?

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Elmarnieh wrote:
How can doing what you wish with your most personal of property be selfish?


Well, this is the definition from Wikipedia on selfishness:

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Selfishness is placing concern with oneself or one's own interests above the well-being of others.


If you kill yourself, you are placing your own interests above those of your family members, who presumably want you to be alive for as long as possible. So it is a very selfish act. By taking your life, you are prematurely ruining multiple forms of value, such as personal relationships, future income potential, family stability and security, and the mental well-being of others. It's actually identical to the things that an act of murder also destroys.


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Isn't it selfish to want someone to live who is suffering just so you aren't sad?

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Elmarnieh wrote:
Isn't it selfish to want someone to live who is suffering just so you aren't sad?


Partly, but when there is a conflict of interests a good approach can be to compromise. Killing yourself is far from compromising. Also what if the suicidal person has children who depend on them? It's dumb to blame the children for being selfish.


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If you want to control my property to a higher degree than I control my property that is selfish on your part and absolutely normal on my part to not wish you to steal my property.

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"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville


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