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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 1:04 pm 
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Screeling wrote:
Jocificus wrote:
"We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost." - Articles of Faith

And as I understand it, Mormons don't believe in the triunion of those three. At least the ones that come to my door and argue it don't. And that, is why I say they are not Christian.


There aren't any definitions of Christianity by dictionaries that use this as criteria.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 2:13 pm 
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Lex Luthor wrote:
Screeling wrote:
Jocificus wrote:
"We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost." - Articles of Faith

And as I understand it, Mormons don't believe in the triunion of those three. At least the ones that come to my door and argue it don't. And that, is why I say they are not Christian.


There aren't any definitions of Christianity by dictionaries that use this as criteria.


Christianity isn't defined by the dictionary. Nor is any other religion, except for maybe atheism.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 2:40 pm 
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Lonedar wrote:

Christianity isn't defined by the dictionary. Nor is any other religion, except for maybe atheism.


Actually if you say "X is Christian", it is an adjective that is defined in a dictionary.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 4:01 pm 
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Lex Luthor wrote:
Lonedar wrote:

Christianity isn't defined by the dictionary. Nor is any other religion, except for maybe atheism.


Actually if you say "X is Christian", it is an adjective that is defined in a dictionary.


You amaze me in how you can be both so right and so wrong all at the same time.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:08 pm 
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Screeling wrote:
And as I understand it, Mormons don't believe in the triunion of those three. At least the ones that come to my door and argue it don't. And that, is why I say they are not Christian.


We believe that they are three seperate and unique beings, which is one of the big reasons that some say that we are not Christian. My personal thought is that along with some other major differences means that lumping us in with the general Christian is a misnomer at best.

If all you base it on is that we believe in Christ, then yes, we do that. If you take it further though, there may be some wiggle room.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:22 pm 
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The Church is called "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints"... so unless you have serious language bias and cognitive denial they are obviously Christian.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:26 am 
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Dude, you are arguing about the realities of a faith you do not participate in with someone who is a member of that faith. You are trying to argue about your concept of the definition of a belief you don't hold with someone who is trying to explain to you that the way you define it doesn't necessarily hold for people who understand and follow the beliefs of the faith. Just tell yourself he doesn't know what he's talking about and drop it, unless you want to learn something.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:28 am 
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So? You argue all the time about things you aren't an expert on. Please divert the attention away from me and more towards how a mainstream church with "Jesus Christ" in their name is not Christian.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 2:10 am 
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Lex Luthor wrote:
So? You argue all the time about things you aren't an expert on.

Not against someone who is.

Lex Luthor wrote:
Please divert the attention away from me and more towards how a mainstream church with "Jesus Christ" in their name is not Christian.


How about the simple fact that having something in their name isn't sufficient in, and of, itself; ever heard of the "Democratic People's Republic of Korea"?

Instead of pointing to something that has little to do with the faith, how about asking real questions about the faith?

Such as:
"Jocificus, how do you distinguish between these tenets, and your uncertainty that it is, in fact, 'Christianity'"?

Thomas S. Monson wrote:
The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it.


and

Mormon.org wrote:
Jesus Christ, Our Savior
Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world and the Son of God. He is our Redeemer. The Holy Bible teaches us that Jesus Christ's mother was Mary, His father on earth was Joseph, that He was born in Bethlehem and raised in Nazareth, and labored with Joseph as a carpenter. When he turned 30, He began a three-year ministry of teaching, blessing, and healing the people of the Holy Land. He also organized His Church and gave His apostles "power and authority" (Luke 9:1) to assist in His work.

But what do we mean when we say He is the Savior of the world? The Redeemer? Each of these titles point to the truth that Jesus Christ is the only way by which we can return to live with our Heavenly Father. Jesus suffered and was crucified for the sins of the world, giving each of God’s children the gift of repentance and forgiveness. Only by His mercy and grace can anyone be saved. His subsequent resurrection prepared the way for every person to overcome physical death as well. These events are called the Atonement. In short, Jesus Christ saves us from sin and death. For that, he is very literally our Savior and Redeemer. In the future Jesus Christ will return to reign on earth in peace for a thousand years. Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and He will be our Lord forever.


Then you might actually learn something about the person and the religion, instead of simply creating animosity.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:46 am 
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We've discussed this before. There are two schools of thought in Christ honoring "religions".

1. The work of Jesus Christ on the cross is sufficient to get the worst sinner into heaven. Without this atonement for themselves even the best person goes to hell. Anyone who honestly agrees and asks can receive this atonement.

2. Other criteria (good works, selection, keeping sacraments, etc) are necessary to obtain or keep the atonement for Christ.

Personally I define a "Christian" as anyone who believes the first to be be true and has acted on it despite their "religious" affiliation.

So any member if LDS who has acted on that (in keeping with their own doctrinal statement) would be a Christian as I've mentioned. Anyone who hasn't isn't.

I'm not sold on the inspiration on the book of Mormon nor do they believe in the autonomy of the local church (iirc). Thusly I don't belong to the LDS church, but that doesn't mean some of it's members won't be in heaven.

In short. Not all Mormons go to heaven, but neither do all Baptists.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:51 am 
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Murderers who ask forgiveness go to Heaven, but Gandhi and Stephen Hawking don't get to. I don't think Jesus wanted it this way, but this is what the Bible says. Being Christian isn't necessarily following the Bible 100%.

edit: wrote in wrong names because I'm tired


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:51 pm 
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How do you know who goes to heaven?

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:03 pm 
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+1

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:35 pm 
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The Bible says it pretty clearly that you need to follow Jesus to go to Heaven.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:50 pm 
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James 4:12 wrote:
God alone, who made the law, can rightly judge among us. He alone has the power to save or to destroy. So what right do you have to condemn your neighbor?


It also says pretty clearly that we don't decide.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:13 pm 
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Lex Luthor wrote:
Lonedar wrote:

Christianity isn't defined by the dictionary. Nor is any other religion, except for maybe atheism.


Actually if you say "X is Christian", it is an adjective that is defined in a dictionary.


No it isn't. It's a noun.

It's also not defined by dictionaries. It's defined by the Nicene, Apostles, and Athanasian Creeds. Any dictionary definition that does not refelct those doctrines is incorrect, not the other way around, as is true for any other proper noun. Dictionary definitions of the United States, if there are any, should reflect what the DOI and Constitution say.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:16 pm 
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Lex Luthor wrote:
So? You argue all the time about things you aren't an expert on. Please divert the attention away from me and more towards how a mainstream church with "Jesus Christ" in their name is not Christian.


The same way that the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is neither democratic, nor a republic by any stretch of the imagination.

You know this perfectly well. You're just trying to agitate people.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:19 pm 
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Vindicarre wrote:
James 4:12 wrote:
God alone, who made the law, can rightly judge among us. He alone has the power to save or to destroy. So what right do you have to condemn your neighbor?


It also says pretty clearly that we don't decide.


Not only do we not decide, we, as a general rule, are not even privvy to the decision.

Quote:
Romans 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:33 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Lex Luthor wrote:
Lonedar wrote:

Christianity isn't defined by the dictionary. Nor is any other religion, except for maybe atheism.


Actually if you say "X is Christian", it is an adjective that is defined in a dictionary.


No it isn't. It's a noun.

It's also not defined by dictionaries. It's defined by the Nicene, Apostles, and Athanasian Creeds. Any dictionary definition that does not refelct those doctrines is incorrect, not the other way around, as is true for any other proper noun. Dictionary definitions of the United States, if there are any, should reflect what the DOI and Constitution say.


Lex gave a slightly ambiguous example, but it can indeed be an adjective in the sentence he gave.


"Joe is Christian" it is an adjective
"Joe is a Christian" it is a noun.
Lex's example holds.


*sigh* now you guys have me commenting on what was supposed to be a data only thread.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:52 pm 
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Riov, we can never have a data only thread :). It's just the way we are :)

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:39 am 
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...and Theri has the sudden realization that not only don't we follow his dictates, he doesn't either.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 3:19 am 
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Kirra wrote:
How do you know who goes to heaven?

Because Ghandi reincarnated as Barack Obama.

Also, :lol: @ your given religion. :)

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:37 am 
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Lex Luthor wrote:
LadyKate wrote:
Hopwin wrote:
I have been touched by his noodly appendage and am now an avowed Pastafarian,


WTF. They've raised over HALF A MILLION DOLLARS for their religion worshiping a pasta monster?


No discussion allowed. Just raw data.


Hey Lex, remember how you reminded me "no discussion allowed"? Remember how I politely shut up? Your turn.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:56 am 
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Kirra wrote:
Riov, we can never have a data only thread :). It's just the way we are :)


Can too! It just takes judicious separation of the data posts from the discussion posts by a mod :-D

Please try to keep the data posts in the data thread, and the discussion posts here.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:43 am 
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Good job, NephyrS, you get a cookie.

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