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 Post subject: Bar economics
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 1:03 am 
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How is this for an explanation?

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2459367/posts

Only thing missing is the government mandated drinks for the unempolyed.

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Easily Understood Explanation of Derivative Markets (In plain language, even a drunk can understand)
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Posted on Thursday, February 25, 2010 6:16:15 PM by Popman

Heidi is the proprietor of a bar in Detroit . She realizes that virtually all of her customers are unemployed alcoholics and, as such, can no longer afford to patronize her bar. To solve this problem, she comes up with a new marketing plan that allows her customers to drink now, but pay later.

Heidi keeps track of the drinks consumed on a ledger (thereby granting the customers' loans). Word gets around about Heidi's "drink now, pay later" marketing strategy and, as a result, increasing numbers of customers flood into Heidi's bar. Soon she has the largest sales volume for any bar in Detroit .

By providing her customers freedom from immediate payment demands, Heidi gets no resistance when, at regular intervals, she substantially increases her prices for wine and beer, the most consumed beverages. Consequently, Heidi's gross sales volume increases massively.

A young and dynamic vice-president at the local bank recognizes that these customer debts constitute valuable future assets and increases Heidi's borrowing limit. He sees no reason for any undue concern, since he has the debts of the unemployed alcoholics as collateral.

At the bank's corporate headquarters, expert traders figure a way to make huge commissions, and transform these customer loans into DRINKBONDS, ALKIBONDS and PUKEBONDS. These securities are then bundled and traded on international security markets.

Naive investors don't really understand that the securities being sold to them as AAA secured bonds are really the debts of unemployed alcoholics. Nevertheless, the bond prices continuously climb, and the securities soon become the hottest-selling items for some of the nation's leading brokerage houses.

One day, even though the bond prices are still climbing, a risk manager at the original local bank decides that the time has come to demand payment on the debts incurred by the drinkers at Heidi's bar. He so informs Heidi.

Heidi then demands payment from her alcoholic patrons, but being unemployed alcoholics they cannot pay back their drinking debts. Since Heidi cannot fulfill her loan obligations she is forced into bankruptcy. The bar closes and the eleven employees lose their jobs. Overnight, DRINKBONDS, ALKIBONDS and PUKEBONDS drop in price by 90%. The collapsed bond asset value destroys the banks liquidity and prevents it from issuing new loans, thus freezing credit and economic activity in the community.The suppliers of Heidi's bar had granted her generous payment extensions and had invested their firms' pension funds in the various BOND securities. They find they are now faced with having to write off her bad debt and with losing over 90% of the presumed value of the bonds. Her wine supplier also claims bankruptcy, closing the doors on a family business that had endured for three generations, her beer supplier is taken over by a competitor, who immediately closes the local plant and lays off 150 workers.

Fortunately though, the bank, the brokerage houses and their respective executives are saved and bailed out by a multi-billion dollar no-strings attached cash infusion from their cronies in Government. The funds required for this bailout are obtained by new taxes levied on employed, middle-class, non-drinkers who have never been in Heidi's bar.

Now do you understand?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 1:11 am 
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Props to the article writer for not blaming the entire bond-buying stupidity on the government.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 2:04 am 
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Clever. I like it.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 8:13 am 
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Xequecal wrote:
Props to the article writer for not blaming the entire bond-buying stupidity on the government.
That's actually a failure of the writer, since the entire bond-buying stupidity is the government's fault in the first place.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:58 am 
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Khross wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
Props to the article writer for not blaming the entire bond-buying stupidity on the government.
That's actually a failure of the writer, since the entire bond-buying stupidity is the government's fault in the first place.

This. The writer left out the level of involvement by the government constructed and backed Flunky Man.


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 Post subject: Re: Bar economics
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:42 am 
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Indeed, the writer leaves out the part where the government requires Heidi to sell booze to alcoholics because sellign only to responsible drinkers would be discriminatory.

That said, the government's foolishness excuses no one else's follishness.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:51 am 
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I'm sure the government's decisions made sense to them at the time. It's hasty to call them "foolish", in my opinion.


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:57 am 
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Lex Luthor wrote:
I'm sure the government's decisions made sense to them at the time. It's hasty to call them "foolish", in my opinion.


Since the government A) consists of people who don't all think the same way and B) consists of people for whom what "makes sense" is what will please their constituents so that they can get re-elected, it's anything but hasty. Sure, it "makes sense" if your main consideration is to please people who are worried about "discrimination" to the exclusion of other concerns.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:57 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Lex Luthor wrote:
I'm sure the government's decisions made sense to them at the time. It's hasty to call them "foolish", in my opinion.


Since the government A) consists of people who don't all think the same way and B) consists of people for whom what "makes sense" is what will please their constituents so that they can get re-elected, it's anything but hasty. Sure, it "makes sense" if your main consideration is to please people who are worried about "discrimination" to the exclusion of other concerns.


Isn't this a political system that you fully support? I thought you liked the vote?

I think it's foolish to call government officials foolish who are working their best within the system of your liking.


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 11:05 am 
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Lex Luthor wrote:
Isn't this a political system that you fully support? I thought you liked the vote?

I think it's foolish to call government officials foolish who are working their best within the system of your liking.


The fact that I support the way the system operates does not mean I can't castigate the individuals that are part of it when they screw up.

I like the system because I think it's as good a system as we're reasonably going to get, not because I think it's perfect.

I also don't think that government officials are doing their best when they ignore obvious hazards in the rush to please the electorate.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 11:17 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Lex Luthor wrote:
Isn't this a political system that you fully support? I thought you liked the vote?

I think it's foolish to call government officials foolish who are working their best within the system of your liking.


The fact that I support the way the system operates does not mean I can't castigate the individuals that are part of it when they screw up.

I like the system because I think it's as good a system as we're reasonably going to get, not because I think it's perfect.

I also don't think that government officials are doing their best when they ignore obvious hazards in the rush to please the electorate.


So you expect elected officials to act solely in the public interest, instead of balancing the public interest with their re-election aspirations? That is incredibly unrealistic. If the governmental system is designed to support politicians who lead to its failure, then the system is essentially designed to fail. The blame should not be on those politicians. They are only human. You cannot expect most soldiers to rush into a battlefield where they know their deaths are certain... analogous to asking a politician to support platforms he knows will not get him re-elected.

I think it is at least imaginable that a better system would not involve elections.


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 11:23 am 
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Lex Luthor wrote:

So you expect elected officials to act solely in the public interest, instead of balancing the public interest with their re-election aspirations?


Why is there a disconnect between the two? Stupid electorate.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 11:24 am 
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You shouldn't let the children do the parenting.


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 11:29 am 
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Lex Luthor wrote:
So you expect elected officials to act solely in the public interest, instead of balancing the public interest with their re-election aspirations? That is incredibly unrealistic.


Obviously it's unrealistic. However, that's really an irrelevant question because the decisions that lead to this problem were not a result of any effort at balance; it was a result of almost completely ignoring public interest in favor of pleasing certain politically active elements in the short ter to ensure re-election. You might want to make sure that your question does not contain a false dilemma in the future.

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If the governmental system is designed to support politicians who lead to its failure, then the system is essentially designed to fail.


This statement is not in any way relevant.

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The blame should not be on those politicians. They are only human.


Being only human does not excuse people from failing to do their duty. As you have stated, there needs to be some balance between their desire for re-election and the public interest. However, the problem here is that there is no balance because re-election is the absolute priority for them. Asking that they subordinate it to the public interest is not the same as saying they should ignore their own interests entirely, and in any case it would be silly since they obviously think that their positions in general are in the public interest in the first place.

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You cannot expect most soldiers to rush into a battlefield where they know their deaths are certain... analogous to asking a politician to support platforms he knows will not get him re-elected.


Except for the fact that it's not analogous because death is not analogous to losing an election.

There's also the fact that soldiers generally don't get ordered into battles where all, or even most, of them are certain to die because then you're left with no soldiers and you lose the battle. In almost any battle, however, some soldiers are almost certain to die and yet they go anyhow. That's what makes them soldiers. That's their duty.

In the same vein, it is the politician's duty to do what is in the public interest. There are varying views on what is in the public interest. However, taking a course of action that is clearly not in the public interest simply because it offers the best chance of re-election is simply dereliction of duty. It is not as if avoiding some perilous course of action would necessarily result in their non-election anyhow.

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I think it is at least imaginable that a better system would not involve elections.


IT's certainly imaginable, but there is no actual evidence to support this contention.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 11:50 am 
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I was unclear when I spoke about "the public interest".

The public interest, generally speaking, can mean one of two things. It can mean serving to best advance the general well-being, prosperity, liberties, and security of the people. It can also mean doing what the people think they want.

The former is better for society, but it might be extremely unpopular. The latter might be good for society, and it will help the politician get re-elected. The latter obviously also serves the personal ambitions of a politician.

Doing either is the duty of the politician. It is not a dereliction of duty to go with the popular platform, because that is what the people want, and mostly why the politician was elected. It is also not a dereliction of duty to advance the well-being of society against what the people want. A politician must weigh both always, and sometimes the balance tilts one way or the other. It's a difficult job.

I just don't think it's right to castigate politicians when they submit to the will of the voters and cause things to collapse. The politicians were just doing their duty.


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:14 pm 
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Lex Luthor wrote:
I was unclear when I spoke about "the public interest".

The public interest, generally speaking, can mean one of two things. It can mean serving to best advance the general well-being, prosperity, liberties, and security of the people. It can also mean doing what the people think they want.

The former is better for society, but it might be extremely unpopular. The latter might be good for society, and it will help the politician get re-elected. The latter obviously also serves the personal ambitions of a politician.

Doing either is the duty of the politician. It is not a dereliction of duty to go with the popular platform, because that is what the people want, and mostly why the politician was elected. It is also not a dereliction of duty to advance the well-being of society against what the people want. A politician must weigh both always, and sometimes the balance tilts one way or the other. It's a difficult job.

I just don't think it's right to castigate politicians when they submit to the will of the voters and cause things to collapse. The politicians were just doing their duty.


The problem with this is that it is not necessarily the duty of politicians to do what is popular. At one time segregation was extremely popular, but continuing it was not the proper thing to do. Their duty was to ensure equal rights for all citizens.

Similarly, we ended up in the Spanish American War in part because the press created the public belief that the U.S.S. Maine was blown up by the Spanish and people demanded action. In fact, it was actually an accident.

Politicians have a responsibility to the wishes of those that elected them, but that doe not mean the wishes of those ont he other side can be completely ignored, and it also does not mean that everyone who elected them necessarily agrees on every issue.

Finally, submitting to the will of the loudest, most strident elements of the public is not the same thing as submitting to the will of "the voters". Just because a particualr viewpoint is getting lots of attention from the media or has loud, obnoxious, demanding people advocating for it does not necessarily make it the "will of the voters".

As you've pointed out, duty can mean more than one thing. Serving one of those meanings without regard to the other is dereliction of duty. Adhereing to the will of the people does not excuse dereliction of duty in regard to the long-term consequences to public interest, just as imposing one's own view of what's good in the long term without regard to what the people want is also dereliction. You can't excuse failure to do one duty by accomplishing another unless the two are necessarily (usually physically) impossible to accomplish together.

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