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Coming Soon to a Government Near You
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Author:  Rynar [ Sat Mar 06, 2010 4:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Coming Soon to a Government Near You

Public school style. Comming soon to a hospital near you. Funny how this sounds so much like Walter Reid, our shining example of government administered health care in this country. Bold added is mine.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1255858/Neglected-lazy-nurses-Kane-Gorny-22-dying-thirst-rang-police-beg-water.html

Quote:
Neglected by 'lazy' nurses, man, 22, dying of thirst rang the police to beg for water
By Emily Andrews
Last updated at 2:19 PM on 06th March 2010


A man of 22 died in agony of dehydration after three days in a leading teaching hospital.
Kane Gorny was so desperate for a drink that he rang police to beg for their help.
They arrived on the ward only to be told by doctors that everything was under control.
The next day his mother Rita Cronin found him delirious and he died within hours.
She said nurses had failed to give him vital drugs which controlled fluid levels in his body. 'He was totally dependent on the nurses to help him and they totally betrayed him.'

A coroner has such grave concerns about the case that it has been referred to police.
Sources say they are investigating the possibility of a corporate manslaughter charge against St George's Hospital in Tooting, South London.
Mr Gorny, from Balham, worked for Waitrose and had been a keen footballer and runner until he was diagnosed with a brain tumour the year before his death.

The medication he took caused his bones to weaken and he was admitted to St George's for a hip replacement in May last year. The operation left him immobile and unable to get out of bed.
His 50-year-old mother says that he needed to take drugs three times a day to regulate his hormones. Doctors had told him that without the drugs he would die.

Although he had stressed to staff how important his medication was, she said, no one gave him the drugs.
She said that two days after his hip operation, while Miss Cronin was at work, he became severely dehydrated but his requests for water were refused.
He became aggressive and nurses called in security guards to restrain him.
After they had left, he rang the police from his bed to demand their help.

Miss Cronin, who is divorced from her son's father Peter, said: 'The police told me he'd said, "Please help me. All I want is a drink and no one is helping me".
'By this time my son was confused due to his lack of medication and I think the nurses just ignored him because they thought he was just being badly behaved.
'They were lazy, careless and hadn't bothered to check his charts and see his medication was essential.'
That evening, Miss Cronin visited him. She said: 'I told Kane to behave himself because I thought he had been causing trouble - and I feel so bad about that now. I thought maybe he was having a bad reaction to the morphine he was on but in fact it was because he had not had his medication.'
The next morning she visited him before going to work. 'He was delirious and his mouth was open,' she said. 'I gave him a drink of Ribena.
'I told three nurses there was something wrong with my son and they said, "He's fine" and walked off. I started to cry and a locum doctor who was there told me not to worry.
'Eventually the ward doctor came round, took one look at Kane and started shouting for help.'
Miss Cronin was asked to leave her son's bedside. 'He died an hour later,' she said. 'I didn't even realise he was dying. I didn't even have a chance to say goodbye.'
The death certificate said Mr Gorny had died because of a 'water deficit' and 'hypernatraemia' - a medical term for dehydration.
His mother added: 'When I went back to the hospital I was told that all the nurses had been offered counselling as they were so traumatised, but nothing was offered to me.
'The whole thing is a disgrace. This hospital has a brilliant reputation and boasts of its excellent standards and safety record.
'But as soon as my son walked into that ward, his death warrant was signed. Of the 32 people who were involved in my son's care, every one made a mistake that ultimately led to his death, from the consultant to the care assistant.
'There has been an internal investigation but St George's never made it public and it was a whitewash-After his death the hospital never phoned me or wrote to me to apologise. How could this happen in the 21st century?'
A Metropolitan Police spokesman said: 'Detectives from the Homicide and Serious Crime Command are investigating the death of Kane Gorny at St George's Hospital after this was referred to us by Westminster Coroner's Court.'
A spokesman for St George's Hospital said: 'We are extremely sorry about the death of Kane Gorny and understand the distress that this has caused to his family.
'A full investigation was carried out and new procedures introduced to ensure that such a case cannot happen in future.
'We have written to the family to explain the actions that have been taken and to answer their concerns about Mr Gorny's care. The family has also been invited to meet with trust staff to discuss the case in detail.'
The tragedy emerged a week after a report into hundreds of deaths at Stafford Hospital revealed the appalling quality of care given by many of the nurses.
This week a task force called on nurses to sign a public pledge that they will treat everyone with compassion and dignity
.

Author:  Kirra [ Sat Mar 06, 2010 5:17 pm ]
Post subject: 

IMO..this is what happens when you allow people to become nurses that are only in the field because of the money. The big push to retrain out of work auto workers ect.. Not to say some of them couldn't be good nurses, but most are out to replace a paycheck. I joke about things in nursing, to keep my sanity, but I take being my patients advocate very seriously and treat them like I would want to be treated.

Author:  Müs [ Sat Mar 06, 2010 7:02 pm ]
Post subject: 

That reads more like a systemic problem at that hospital more than an indictment on the nursing profession in general.

But yeah, its Britain, the original nanny state :p

Author:  RangerDave [ Sat Mar 06, 2010 7:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What Happens When You Turn Nurses Into Teachers

Rynar wrote:
Public school style. Comming soon to a hospital near you. Funny how this sounds so much like Walter Reid, our shining example of government administered health care in this country. Bold added is mine.


Dude, there are like 100,000 deaths due to medical errors in the US every year. If you want to compare anecdotal horror stories, the US private system will stomp the British public system. On the other hand, if you have stats showing a higher percentage of medical errors in public systems, I'd be interested in seeing them.

Author:  Rynar [ Sat Mar 06, 2010 9:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:

Kirra wrote:
IMO..this is what happens when you allow people to become nurses that are only in the field because of the money. The big push to retrain out of work auto workers ect.. Not to say some of them couldn't be good nurses, but most are out to replace a paycheck. I joke about things in nursing, to keep my sanity, but I take being my patients advocate very seriously and treat them like I would want to be treated.


The idea was that this is what happens when you turn primary caretakers into government employees, and that this situation is symptomatic of government hackery.

Author:  DFK! [ Sat Mar 06, 2010 10:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What Happens When You Turn Nurses Into Teachers

RangerDave wrote:
Rynar wrote:
Public school style. Comming soon to a hospital near you. Funny how this sounds so much like Walter Reid, our shining example of government administered health care in this country. Bold added is mine.


Dude, there are like 100,000 deaths due to medical errors in the US every year. If you want to compare anecdotal horror stories, the US private system will stomp the British public system. On the other hand, if you have stats showing a higher percentage of medical errors in public systems, I'd be interested in seeing them.


That isn't a medical error story, RD. It's a neglect story. Huge difference.

Author:  Kirra [ Sun Mar 07, 2010 1:09 am ]
Post subject: 

Why do I always read things differently and give my opinion when it's not what was intended..do I think that much different than the people here? /sigh

Author:  Rynar [ Sun Mar 07, 2010 1:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re:

Kirra wrote:
Why do I always read things differently and give my opinion when it's not what was intended..do I think that much different than the people here? /sigh


You weren't the only person to voice that opinion, which is why I changed the title. I hope this grants a better understanding of the intent of my post.

Author:  Xequecal [ Sun Mar 07, 2010 3:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When Gov't Regulates Nurses This Can Be Expected

No one except some deluded center-left liberals believes that public health care is of equivalent quality to private health care.

Author:  Rynar [ Sun Mar 07, 2010 3:30 am ]
Post subject: 

Because Americans have never experienced it, they expect it to be, since the American quaility of care is the standard they are used to.

Author:  Timmit [ Sun Mar 07, 2010 7:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What Happens When You Turn Nurses Into Teachers

RangerDave wrote:
Dude, there are like 100,000 deaths due to medical errors in the US every year. If you want to compare anecdotal horror stories, the US private system will stomp the British public system. On the other hand, if you have stats showing a higher percentage of medical errors in public systems, I'd be interested in seeing them.
I'm not going to bother arguing either way which system is worse because I don't really care enough to do the research into US vs British statistics, but when you compare rates of anything between the US and Britain you need to keep in the back of your head the fact that the US has roughly 6 times the population of Britain.

Author:  Telumehtar [ Sun Mar 07, 2010 5:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When Gov't Regulates Nurses This Can Be Expected

Rynar: The Government already regulates nurses in the U.S.. Do you mean:"When the Government employs nurses this can be expected"? None of the current plans (house, senate, presidential) will make health care workers government employees. Therefore, your point is fallacious.

Author:  Hopwin [ Sun Mar 07, 2010 7:52 pm ]
Post subject: 

If you need evidence for the government screwing up health care look at what happened to the standard of care after decades of medicare and medicaid.

Author:  TheRiov [ Sun Mar 07, 2010 9:19 pm ]
Post subject: 

How exactly is this an indictment of a gov't run health system? This is just you twisting a medical (and admittedly egregious ) case of medical malpractice to suit your own narrative.

Then again, this is a press article which could well neglect the medical side of the story. I'd like to hear the doctors and nurses side of the story before condemning people.

Author:  Rynar [ Sun Mar 07, 2010 9:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:

TheRiov wrote:
How exactly is this an indictment of a gov't run health system? This is just you twisting a medical (and admittedly egregious ) case of medical malpractice to suit your own narrative.

Then again, this is a press article which could well neglect the medical side of the story. I'd like to hear the doctors and nurses side of the story before condemning people.


Read the last two sentences of the article, which I bolded.

The reason this is indicative of a government run system, specifically the UK system which Democratic elected officials seek to emulate, is because the best and brightest, the most motivated and the most successful don't seek government jobs. Those jobs are given out to friends or friends in a near-merit-less system, and the standards of employment are dropped and politicized.

You essentially wind up with shovel-leaners, more concerned with their pension than their job performance, providing essential emergency care.

Enjoy!

Tell:

I agree that the title isn't perfect, but I'm more comfortable with this one than my last one. I'm open to suggestion.

Author:  DFK! [ Sun Mar 07, 2010 9:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:

TheRiov wrote:
How exactly is this an indictment of a gov't run health system? This is just you twisting a medical (and admittedly egregious ) case of medical malpractice to suit your own narrative.

Then again, this is a press article which could well neglect the medical side of the story. I'd like to hear the doctors and nurses side of the story before condemning people.


Well, for one, in the NHS you bring your own medicine to the hospital to keep costs down by preventing double-prescribing. So that has to contribute to the situation, because instead of the physicians doing any ordering at the hospital, the pharmacists doing any filling, and the nurses doing any delivering of medications, all you're left with is nurses holding your existing prescriptions. As such, no one of authority exists to give a ****.

In other words, cost cutting introduced potential for systemic error via apathy.

Author:  Taskiss [ Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:18 pm ]
Post subject: 

It's too small a sample for a broad conclusion of an entire category.

Author:  TheRiov [ Sun Mar 07, 2010 11:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Re:

Rynar wrote:
The reason this is indicative of a government run system, specifically the UK system which Democratic elected officials seek to emulate, is because the best and brightest, the most motivated and the most sucesful don't seek government jobs. Those jobs are given out to friends or friends in a near-meritless system, and the standards of employment are dropped and politicized.


these statements are in no way supported by the text.
Furthermore, your premise, that the 'best brightest and most motivated' individuals will not seek gov't jobs is based on the assumption that everyone is motivated by the great God MONEY. Not everyone is. Some chose to serve because in addition to being 'best and brightest and most motivated' -- they were also gifted with a desire to serve and not make greed the driving force in their lives.

Author:  Rynar [ Sun Mar 07, 2010 11:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:

Taskiss wrote:
It's too small a sample for a broad conclusion of an entire category.


The sample size is enourmous. It includes every government employee in a western system. Why do you feel the incompetence would some how hold away from medicine, when it's so pervasive everywhere else?

Author:  Rynar [ Sun Mar 07, 2010 11:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Re:

TheRiov wrote:
Rynar wrote:
The reason this is indicative of a government run system, specifically the UK system which Democratic elected officials seek to emulate, is because the best and brightest, the most motivated and the most sucesful don't seek government jobs. Those jobs are given out to friends or friends in a near-meritless system, and the standards of employment are dropped and politicized.


these statements are in no way supported by the text.
Furthermore, your premise, that the 'best brightest and most motivated' individuals will not seek gov't jobs is based on the assumption that everyone is motivated by the great God MONEY. Not everyone is. Some chose to serve because in addition to being 'best and brightest and most motivated' -- they were also gifted with a desire to serve and not make greed the driving force in their lives.


Whether it is or not for you, it is for most of the rest of the world. It is the world we live in.

Author:  RangerDave [ Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What Happens When You Turn Nurses Into Teachers

DFK! wrote:
That isn't a medical error story, RD. It's a neglect story. Huge difference.


Plenty of those in the US too, and I don't think the line between error and neglect is always clear. Most errors, as I understand it, are of the "slipped through the cracks" or "no one bothered to check the chart" variety rather than the "oops, we cut off the wrong leg" type.

Anyway, I'm just saying that trading anecdotal horror stories is pointless unless there are comparative stats to go with them.

Author:  Rynar [ Mon Mar 08, 2010 1:52 am ]
Post subject: 

The article indicates that the problem is systemic, and in what they believe to be a model institution.

Author:  Taskiss [ Mon Mar 08, 2010 7:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Re:

Rynar wrote:
Taskiss wrote:
It's too small a sample for a broad conclusion of an entire category.


The sample size is enourmous. It includes every government employee in a western system. Why do you feel the incompetence would some how hold away from medicine, when it's so pervasive everywhere else?

Every government employee in a western system? I must have missed something...

A guy in St George's Hospital dies a pretty horrible death due to negligence.
The article mentions a previous report that says "many" nurses at Stafford Hospital are providing appalling quality which may have led to "hundreds" of deaths.
It's reported that "a task force called on nurses to sign a public pledge that they will treat everyone with compassion and dignity". There was no scope identified for that request.

I don't see how such a broad conclusion - "incompetence" of "every government employee in a western system" - can be validated with the evidence provided. The article presented evidence from only 2 hospitals out of what looks like several hundreds just in England alone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ho ... in_England

Author:  Arathain Kelvar [ Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Re:

Rynar wrote:
The reason this is indicative of a government run system, specifically the UK system which Democratic elected officials seek to emulate, is because the best and brightest, the most motivated and the most successful don't seek government jobs.


Holy unsubstantiated claim, Batman!

Quote:
Those jobs are given out to friends or friends in a near-merit-less system, and the standards of employment are dropped and politicized.


This too.

Quote:
You essentially wind up with shovel-leaners, more concerned with their pension than their job performance, providing essential emergency care.


And this.

Author:  Rynar [ Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:59 pm ]
Post subject: 

I can understand people under federal employ getting upset with this, but quite frankly, I don't care.

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