The Glade 4.0 :: View topic - Militia Groups Raided in Three States, Arrests Made

FBI agents conduct raids in Mich., Ohio, Ind.

ADRIAN, Mich. – The FBI says agents have conducted weekend raids in Michigan, Indiana and Ohio, and at least three people have been arrested.

Federal warrants are sealed, but FBI spokeswoman Sandra Berchtold said Sunday there has been "law enforcement activity" in southwest Michigan. She wouldn't say whether they were tied to the raids in the other states.

FBI spokesman Scott Wilson in Cleveland says agents arrested two people Saturday in Ohio. A third arrest was made in Illinois on Sunday, a day after raids in Indiana.

Michael Lackomar, spokesman for the Southeast Michigan Volunteer Militia, says a member of his group was called by members of a religious militia Saturday who claimed their property was being raided. Lackomar says the SMVM member declined to help and is cooperating with the FBI.

Wait, possessing a firearm during a crime of violence is a crime?

So, if I have a CCW, and carry out of habit, and go off my rocker and punch a dude, I get charged not only for battery (as I should be), but for having the gun I had the restraint NOT to use on me?

Whether you have ever been convicted of any crime, if you use or brandish, display, carry, or possess a firearm in a way designed to further or carry out a drug-trafficking crime or a federal crime of violence, you can be charged—in addition to the crime itself—with a federal firearms crime. In fact, you can be convicted of this offense even if the gun is not on you! The lightest sentence you can get for this crime is 5 years, with no parole. The sentence must be served in addition to any other sentence for the drug trafficking or violent crime. And, if you get convicted of having a gun during a second violent crime or drug-trafficking offense—even during the same trial—you're automatically going to prison for at least 30 years.

I can't speak to the Federal one (and I'd really like to see the case where someone got convicted where the gun wasn't on them; smart money says there's more to it than that) but in State laws, if you commit some violent crime while in posession of a weapon it becomes a more serious crime, or a separate crime - provided the victim is aware you have the weapon. If you're already committing a violent crime, there's a reasonable fear on the part of the victim that you might chose to use a weapon you have.

Militias? This sounds more like a terrorist organization. If found guilty, I hope they rot.

Loki wrote:

Militias? This sounds more like a terrorist organization. If found guilty, I hope they rot.

You have no evidence of this, you are regressing to a confirmation bias.

Rynar wrote:

Loki wrote:

Militias? This sounds more like a terrorist organization. If found guilty, I hope they rot.

You have no evidence of this, you are regressing to a confirmation bias.

I consider any group of people plotting to kill U.S. citizens terrorists. Fault me in that I trust the FBI and other government institutions to actually be conducting raids based on good intelligence and/or physical evidence. I'm young and still hold ideals!

I will freely admit to a bias held against any fundamentalist religious group. In my experience, they have always been the ones to promote and carry out acts of violence.

I would like to see more transparency in what exactly is going on though.

Rynar: Are you saying that there's no evidence these people plotted to kill a law enforcement official and plant explosives at the funeral procession, or that even if they did those things, there's still no evidence that they're terrorists?

What? Not liking the groups being called militias? I'm not sure what you are getting at.

Loki wrote:

What? Not liking the groups being called militias? I'm not sure what you are getting at.

The idea of not necessarily associating terrorism with militias, and not taking the government statement at face value. Basically a plea for skepticism.

Loki,

But haven't you noticed the ability for the government to find evidence for anything they want to be found true?

The nonreligious Communist Soviet Union comes to mind as largest mass murdering of their own people government of all time.

Micheal wrote:

The nonreligious Communist Soviet Union comes to mind as largest mass murdering of their own people government of all time.

Not quite. China just hid the books better.

Author:	Rynar [ Sun Mar 28, 2010 4:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Militia Groups Raided in Three States, Arrests Made
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100328/ap_on_re_us/us_fbi_raids Quote: FBI agents conduct raids in Mich., Ohio, Ind. ADRIAN, Mich. – The FBI says agents have conducted weekend raids in Michigan, Indiana and Ohio, and at least three people have been arrested. Federal warrants are sealed, but FBI spokeswoman Sandra Berchtold said Sunday there has been "law enforcement activity" in southwest Michigan. She wouldn't say whether they were tied to the raids in the other states. FBI spokesman Scott Wilson in Cleveland says agents arrested two people Saturday in Ohio. A third arrest was made in Illinois on Sunday, a day after raids in Indiana. Michael Lackomar, spokesman for the Southeast Michigan Volunteer Militia, says a member of his group was called by members of a religious militia Saturday who claimed their property was being raided. Lackomar says the SMVM member declined to help and is cooperating with the FBI.

Author:	Beryllin [ Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Militia Groups Raided in Three States, Arrests Made
From what I see, they may be accused of selling pipe bombs. Gonna watch this close.

Author:	Rynar [ Sun Mar 28, 2010 11:12 pm ]
Post subject:
I have read it was "gun charges", but that the warrants were sealed.

Author:	Aizle [ Mon Mar 29, 2010 2:39 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Militia Groups Raided in Three States, Arrests Made
http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/03/29/mic ... google_cnn 'Christian warrior' militia accused in plot to kill police (CNN) -- Nine people federal prosecutors say belong to a "Christian warrior" militia were accused Monday of plotting to kill a Michigan law enforcement officer and then attack other police at the funeral. A federal grand jury in Detroit, Michigan, indicted six Michigan residents, two Ohioans and an Indiana resident on charges of seditious conspiracy, attempted use of weapons of mass destruction, teaching the use of explosive materials and possessing a firearm during a crime of violence, U.S. Attorney Barbara L. McQuade and Andrew Arena, FBI special agent in charge, announced. The five-count indictment unsealed Monday charges that since August 2008, the defendants, acting as a Lenawee County, Michigan, militia group called the Hutaree, conspired to oppose by force the authority of the U.S. government. Attorney General Eric Holder called it "an insidious plan by anti-government extremists." The group says on its Web site that Hutaree means "Christian warrior" and proclaims on its home page, "Preparing for the end time battles to keep the testimony of Jesus Christ alive." In the Web site's "About Us" section, the group says, "We believe that one day, as prophecy says, there will be an Anti-Christ. All Christians must know this and prepare, just as Christ commanded." The Southern Poverty Law Center, an Alabama-based nonprofit organization that monitors hate groups and other fringe organizations, lists the Hutaree as a "Patriot" group militia. "Generally, Patriot groups define themselves as opposed to the 'New World Order,' engage in groundless conspiracy theorizing or advocate or adhere to extreme anti-government doctrines," the Southern Poverty Law Center said in a report, "Rage on the Right: The Year in Hate and Extremism." The law center also defines Patriot groups as "militias and other organizations that see the federal government as part of a plot to impose 'one-world government' on liberty-loving Americans."

Author:	Kaffis Mark V [ Mon Mar 29, 2010 3:49 pm ]
Post subject:
Wait, possessing a firearm during a crime of violence is a crime? So, if I have a CCW, and carry out of habit, and go off my rocker and punch a dude, I get charged not only for battery (as I should be), but for having the gun I had the restraint NOT to use on me?

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Author:	Ladas [ Mon Mar 29, 2010 3:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Re:
Kaffis Mark V wrote: Wait, possessing a firearm during a crime of violence is a crime? So, if I have a CCW, and carry out of habit, and go off my rocker and punch a dude, I get charged not only for battery (as I should be), but for having the gun I had the restraint NOT to use on me? Depends on how you presented the gun, but in most cases, yes, you would be at least charged. From this site: Quote: Whether you have ever been convicted of any crime, if you use or brandish, display, carry, or possess a firearm in a way designed to further or carry out a drug-trafficking crime or a federal crime of violence, you can be charged—in addition to the crime itself—with a federal firearms crime. In fact, you can be convicted of this offense even if the gun is not on you! The lightest sentence you can get for this crime is 5 years, with no parole. The sentence must be served in addition to any other sentence for the drug trafficking or violent crime. And, if you get convicted of having a gun during a second violent crime or drug-trafficking offense—even during the same trial—you're automatically going to prison for at least 30 years.

Author:	Elmarnieh [ Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:01 pm ]
Post subject:
"in a way designed to further or carry out a drug-trafficking crime or a federal crime of violence" Hard as ball to prove or disprove.

Author:	Rynar [ Mon Mar 29, 2010 6:42 pm ]
Post subject:
That's sort of the point, Elmo. Guilty until proven innocent.

Author:	Diamondeye [ Mon Mar 29, 2010 8:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Militia Groups Raided in Three States, Arrests Made
I can't speak to the Federal one (and I'd really like to see the case where someone got convicted where the gun wasn't on them; smart money says there's more to it than that) but in State laws, if you commit some violent crime while in posession of a weapon it becomes a more serious crime, or a separate crime - provided the victim is aware you have the weapon. If you're already committing a violent crime, there's a reasonable fear on the part of the victim that you might chose to use a weapon you have.

Author:	Loki [ Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:35 pm ]
Post subject:
Militias? This sounds more like a terrorist organization. If found guilty, I hope they rot.

Author:	Rynar [ Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:40 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Militia Groups Raided in Three States, Arrests Made
Diamondeye wrote: I can't speak to the Federal one (and I'd really like to see the case where someone got convicted where the gun wasn't on them; smart money says there's more to it than that) but in State laws, if you commit some violent crime while in posession of a weapon it becomes a more serious crime, or a separate crime - provided the victim is aware you have the weapon. If you're already committing a violent crime, there's a reasonable fear on the part of the victim that you might chose to use a weapon you have. This is a statute that should only apply if the weapon is presented in commission of the crime, or if the victim of a crime is made aware of the presence of a weapon during said commission, ie. "I HAVE A GUN!" (knife, baseball bat, syringe full of AIDS infected blood, whatever...) If the victim of a crime is unaware of the presence of a weapon, that weapon does not add to their duress, nor does it make them more likely to concede to the further demands of the person allegedly committing the crime.

Author:	Rynar [ Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:42 pm ]
Post subject:	Re:
Loki wrote: Militias? This sounds more like a terrorist organization. If found guilty, I hope they rot. You have no evidence of this, you are regressing to a confirmation bias.

Author:	RangerDave [ Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:54 pm ]
Post subject:
Rynar: Are you saying that there's no evidence these people plotted to kill a law enforcement official and plant explosives at the funeral procession, or that even if they did those things, there's still no evidence that they're terrorists?

Author:	Loki [ Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Re:
Rynar wrote: Loki wrote: Militias? This sounds more like a terrorist organization. If found guilty, I hope they rot. You have no evidence of this, you are regressing to a confirmation bias. I consider any group of people plotting to kill U.S. citizens terrorists. Fault me in that I trust the FBI and other government institutions to actually be conducting raids based on good intelligence and/or physical evidence. I'm young and still hold ideals! I will freely admit to a bias held against any fundamentalist religious group. In my experience, they have always been the ones to promote and carry out acts of violence. I would like to see more transparency in what exactly is going on though.

Author:	Elmarnieh [ Wed Mar 31, 2010 2:47 am ]
Post subject:
Then you haven't been exposed to enough information. Which has killed more innocent people, religious groups (all of them) or governments?

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Author:	Rynar [ Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Re:
Loki wrote: Rynar wrote: Loki wrote: Militias? This sounds more like a terrorist organization. If found guilty, I hope they rot. You have no evidence of this, you are regressing to a confirmation bias. I consider any group of people plotting to kill U.S. citizens terrorists. Fault me in that I trust the FBI and other government institutions to actually be conducting raids based on good intelligence and/or physical evidence. I'm young and still hold ideals! I will freely admit to a bias held against any fundamentalist religious group. In my experience, they have always been the ones to promote and carry out acts of violence. I would like to see more transparency in what exactly is going on though. I'm not asking you to agree with me. I'm asking you to challenge your own base assertions, and see exactly where that leads you.

Author:	Rynar [ Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re:
RangerDave wrote: Rynar: Are you saying that there's no evidence these people plotted to kill a law enforcement official and plant explosives at the funeral procession, or that even if they did those things, there's still no evidence that they're terrorists? No. I'm saying that we don't know if there is or not, and if there is we don't know the nature of that evidence, spurious or otherwise. Basically, I'm saying don't be prejudicial.

Author:	Loki [ Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:15 pm ]
Post subject:
What? Not liking the groups being called militias? I'm not sure what you are getting at.

Author:	Rynar [ Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:17 pm ]
Post subject:	Re:
Loki wrote: What? Not liking the groups being called militias? I'm not sure what you are getting at. The idea of not necessarily associating terrorism with militias, and not taking the government statement at face value. Basically a plea for skepticism.

Author:	Loki [ Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:07 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Re:
Rynar wrote: Loki wrote: What? Not liking the groups being called militias? I'm not sure what you are getting at. The idea of not necessarily associating terrorism with militias, and not taking the government statement at face value. Basically a plea for skepticism. Thanks for the clarification! Science has taught me to be skeptical of everything. I am slightly skeptical here, but given past evidence of violence being comitted by others with similar thought groups, I still think my assessment is reasonable. Which is not to say that all militias are terrorists in my mind, only those that behave in a manner that should classify them as such. Like threatening to kill U.S. citizens. But, I'm a firm believer in innocent until proven guilty, hence the "if" clause of my initial statement. If the feds have enough evidence to convict these guys, then I can't say I'd shed any tears. I also don't believe everything the government says (Heck, having been lied to by them for my whole life has certainly killed that), but only time will tell.

Author:	darksiege [ Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:57 pm ]
Post subject:
Loki, But haven't you noticed the ability for the government to find evidence for anything they want to be found true?

Author:	Loki [ Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Re:
darksiege wrote: Loki, But haven't you noticed the ability for the government to find evidence for anything they want to be found true? I'm not that paranoid, yet.

Author:	Micheal [ Wed Mar 31, 2010 3:48 am ]
Post subject:
The nonreligious Communist Soviet Union comes to mind as largest mass murdering of their own people government of all time.

Author:	Khross [ Wed Mar 31, 2010 6:59 am ]
Post subject:	Re:
Micheal wrote: The nonreligious Communist Soviet Union comes to mind as largest mass murdering of their own people government of all time. Not quite. China just hid the books better.

Author:	Diamondeye [ Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:00 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Re:
Khross wrote: Micheal wrote: The nonreligious Communist Soviet Union comes to mind as largest mass murdering of their own people government of all time. Not quite. China just hid the books better. If they hid the books better, how would you know?