The Glade 4.0

last night I had a rather frustrating experience and I'm cureious how the other BJJ players react.
My school tends to be very friendly and easy going, we have a mix of people age 16-45 and everything is normally very comradely. We push ourselves, but no one wants to see someone get hurt.

We're a Relson Gracie school which means unless we're doing something special, its Gi on and most people shy away from no-gi techniques for various reasons--but one no-gi technique I really like and has proven very effective for me is the Lockdown. (from half-guard, grapevine the leg, feed the other leg across your own foot and extend--it puts a minor strain on the knee and foot but mostly prevents someone passing your half-guard. I can lock most people down for an extended period of time while I work on a sweep submission. Its also frustrating as hell when you're in it because you feel like you should be dominating but you can't accomplish much as you cannot get the leverage to do much and passing is a pain in the butt. Admittedly its a move I do well and it becomes my go-to move when I'm pressed until I can regain the offensive.



So last night my first night back in 2 months I got mounted. I passed to half guard and immediatly sunk in the lockdown and tried to move for an Ezekiel choke. (Bear in mind the guy on top of me is also going for submissions, but I managed to get about half into the Ezekiel but couldn't sink it and had my fist against his forhead instead. possible to land a crank from there but I'm mostly tring to pass the arm around to sink in the choke.


The guy broke my grip and passed out of the lockdown. Then Proceeded to drive his elbow into my the side of my jaw. no submission, just jabbing me face. I didn't feel like dealing with it so I tapped. No pride, but it was a bit unsportsmanlike but he got the tap, so ok.

The guy then shoved me back on the mat as we were getting up, stormed off and wouldn't come back.
I spoke to him after, and he now is refusing to roll with me in the future because he 'doesn't get anything' out of me locking down his leg. (of course my thought is--then learn to counter it, everyone has moves you struggle against, I got caught with americanas about 12 times in 3 weeks until I learned how to counter them.)

I guess my question is this: When rolling friendly, how much would you consider the use of pain-based submissions acceptable, and would you avoid using a technique that is effective, but statemates the match about 3 times out of 4.

While not a BJJ player, and with a very limited experience in the martial arts, I've found that the rolling friendly method is a slippery slope, good only as long as ego and misunderstandings stay out of it.

Everyone has to know and accept the rules and boundaries. Someone steps over them, even accidentally, and hard feelings are almost inevitable.

When I took Karate for a year, long ago, pain submissions were part of the training, using them was considered normal, in the 'I could really hurt you right now but here's a little pain to let you know you can submit' way. Sensei also required talking about matches as part of the training, "OK, what did you do wrong that let him get the win? How are you going to fix that."

I'm sure none of that is new to you, but the question to ask here is, Are both of you working from the same page? If not, who has the misunderstanding of the rules?

Talk to your Sensei, ask for guidance. He will be able to see both sides better than any of us here can.

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The U. S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself. B. Franklin

"A mind needs books like a sword needs a whetstone." -- Tyrion Lannister, A Game of Thrones

IMHO, submissions are integral to BJJ; if you're going to actually train, you use them. If you want to continue to use your pet technique, feel free, but it looks like your opponent spoke the truth when he said he got nothing from it. He passed your technique and submitted you. If it stalemates the match a vast majority of the time while "rolling friendly", it seems like it's a marginally applicable technique and he might want to train against something that would be effective in a non-"rolling friendly" situation.

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"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

I guess I generally draw a line between pain-submissions (anything like driving a knuckle into ribs, putting elbow in the face, or some of the muscle slicers) Things that on the street wouldn't necessarily end a fight -- as opposed to something like an armbar or choke hold which WILL-- you break an arm, choke them unconcious the opponent cannot continue violence, (or at least effective violence) You release a pain submission and your opponent just powers through it. Hard to power through a broken arm.

Some submissions (knee-bars, heel hooks, some neck cranks) have such a high percentage of injury chance we don't allow them in most scenarios.

What I'm willing to put up with in training is less than I'd be willing to put up with in a fight. (Its not worth me having my face bruised eye to jaw in a friendly training session, but I sure as hell wouldn't let it slow me down in street fight)

As for the lockdown-- it worked... for what I wanted it to, it was when I tried to transition out that I lost the hold-- thats all well and good, tells me I need to work the transition.

I guess I just dont understand his objection--*I* wasn't the one who stormed off the mat. I thought his move was cheesy, but I didn't complain. Wouldn't have thought twice about it, other than he acted like a jerk after.

Again, use what you want, roll with who you want to; be man enough to let others do the same. If what you're really looking for is someone to say, "He acted like a jerk", then here: He acted like a jerk.

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"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

Personally I don't view elbowing someone in the face a pain-based submission. Pressure points are pain submissions, elbowing someone in the face is a strike. I would not consider that "friendly".

As for the technique, if it's valid then no reason not to use it. But if you constantly use it so that it becomes a crutch, then you're probably doing yourself a disservice by continually relying on it and you're hurting your own growth.

This is the technique I was referring to.

No, it's called developing your style. Some guys are strong at guard, some at half guard, some at rolling sweeps out of guards straight into submission set-ups. I don't use full mount but rather a very mobile top game between knee on belly and side control through north-south because I find it's easier for me to wear out my opponent than just crank on from full mount. I also know it helps me defend better against bridge escapes as losing my position from KoB/Side is less detrimental.

That said, I still develop my mount game just like everyone else. You should strengthen your game as a whole but you should also accept there are core positions you are strongest in and really hone those.

Next time, put your hand over his mouth and nose to disrupt his breathing pattern. That will really mess up his game, though if you do this from half guard he can do this much better from inside half-guard. If he does it from inside guard, he's asking to get armlocked unless he is being very careful.

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"It's real, grew up in trife life, the times of white lines
The hype vice, murderous nighttimes and knife fights invite crimes" - Nasir Jones

There is a difference between developing a style, and grinding away on one techique so much that it becomes the only thing that you can do and the technique you try and use all the time, regardless of the situation.

Plenty of players out there that do the later, and are even somewhat effective with it. It really just comes down to what you're trying to get out of the art. If you're actually trying to learn the art, and not just how to beat people up, then you need to make sure that you are learning all the techniques and be able to do them well, as they all have something to teach you about body mechanics, etc.