The Glade 4.0

He was a wonderful historian, and able to craft an entire world (no small feat). His language is also beautifully crafted, if staid.

But themes, characters, pacing...Tolkien didn't seem to have any use for that. They seemed impediments on his academically-driven writings.

This.

Really, the only part of any of the movies that I REALLY disliked was the change that he made with how Faromir resists the power of the ring. We eventually get to the same place, but it's far more drawn out and cheesy than it should have been and I think cheapened the quiet strength of the character of Faromir. That and the silly hobbit/ringwraith Mexican standoff.

I cannot disagree with most of you more.

Taly: at least half this movie was made up **** that didn't happen, and not only didn't happen in The Hobbit, it just literally didn't happen.

Farsky: Baloney. If Tolkein was so bad, he wouldn't be one of the best selling authors in modern history. Disliking his style does not make him a bad writer.

Do you dislike Milton because it's poetry instead of prose? Or Shakespeare because it is iambic pentameter? Perhaps you do, but those are YOUR preferences.

One could counter that Jackson is also wildly successful, and opinion goes the other way, sure. But for one to do that they'd need to not approach the subject as if one's tastes were superior to or more correct than others.

I've simply said that this is not The Hobbit. This is a fantasy movie with certain scenes stolen from The Hobbit. You may take that as you will, I have not said that one is 'better' than the other.

_________________
“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

You're going to appeal to popularity in a world with Stefanie Meyer?


No, though both of those are questions of technique (of which Tolkien's, you'll note, I praise). Romeo and Juliet, for instance, I dislike because I find the core story and characters to be ill-formed and shallow. The mechanics of his technique and the trappings of his , however, remains sterling. Style over substance and a poor story well-told, as it were. And so I find Tolkien, albeit somewhat in reverse.


And those are yours.

I'm going to appeal to that, critical success, longevity, and anything else besides "some guy with a movie blog says so."



Fair enough regarding mechanics, but this then goes back to you stating your opinions as fact.



I've stated no preference here except to disagree with your opinion that Jackson is somehow a better writer than Tolkien. There is no such objective measure.

_________________
“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

Tolkien's writing was poor in several ways that are not subjective or "opinion" at all. His regular constant use of Deus Ex Machina entirely ruined The Hobbit. I was really hoping P.J. had done something about the giant eagles previously unmentioned in the story that swooped out of nowhere to save the party, but alas, he left that ridiculous element intact in the first movie.

I am glad he eliminated the second, most egregious element of Deus Ex Machina from the plot even before it happened. In the book, Bard went unmentioned until Smaug attacked laketown. Then, Wow! A magic thrush tells this previously unmentioned laketown archer where the dragon's weak spot is, and presto! Dead smaug.

This is before the dwarves ever had a chance to even encounter their ancient nemesis.

The Desolation of Smaug fixes so many terrible flaws in the narrative of the book. In the book, the Elves of Mirkwood, who play a major part in the story's conclusion, are barely a footnote when they imprison the dwarves. The dwarves themselves are undifferentiated and uncharacterized, being simply incompetent comic foils to Bilbo's newfound competence -- even Thorin Oakenshield is both unimpressive and entirely incompetent in the book. The Hobbit movies characterize both elves and dwarves, and this is a good thing. Of course, to do that, elements had to be invented that were not in the book, because tolkien left these characters utterly blank. Tauriel is a great addition to add a previously absent female presence, and present a way to characterize one of the dwarves even further.

Lastly, and most importantly, Smaug. Letting the dwarves do battle with the dragon and survive (although not leaving smaug any worse the wear) is brilliant. With Tolkien's lack of understanding of narrative, letting the dwarves travel all this way to reclaim their home, and then having the dragon, after a brief conversation with a hobbit, fly away and get killed by a stray arrow, was nothing short of moronic. Now, Bard, a scion of the great warrior, already knows smaug's weakness, because his grandfather told him. And he is going to be ready for the angry dragon.

Tolkien was a terrible writer. The things he was good at actually salvaged his books to the point of the popularity you describe, but as a novellist, he was nothing more than a hack.

_________________
Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

Yes! Both my son and I were wondering what was up with his eyes. They were very strange looking.

_________________
"Said I never had much use for one, never said I didn't know how to use one!"~ Matthew Quigley

"nothing like a little meow in bed at night" ~ Bruskey

"I gotta float my stick same as you" Hondo Lane

"Fill your hand you son of a *****!"

I thought Legolas looked fine. All of the elves had funny eyes, it wasn't unique to him.

Smaug was **** awesome. Movie is a must-see just for him, probably the best dragon in any movie ever. This is why I was so pissed when they didn't reveal him in the first movie.

That would have been fine had they given him the same funny eyes in the LotR trilogy. They didn't. He went from dark brown to impossibly light blue. It's jarring.

Also, he's aged and his face has filled in. This is unavoidable, but combined with the eyes it contributed greatly to him not looking like the same person.

_________________
Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

I kept thinking the actor who played Bard was Orlando Bloom

You're not the only one.

I can't decide if its Tolkein who had father issues and Jackson is reflecting that, or its just Jackson alone who did.

How many characters are trying to live up to the expectations or live down the failings of their fathers?

Aragorn lives with the fear of suffering Isiuldur's weakness.
Faramir is trying to live up to his father's expectations.
Frodo is trying to live up to Bilbo's legend.
Thorin is trying to succeed where his father failed.

And in Peter Jackson's stories:
Bard is trying to live down Girion's failure.
Legolas is crushing on a she-elf his father won't approve of.

Probably Jackson. See below:

_________________
“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

I didn't mean to imply that the relationships between these individuals was always fathers & sons. Simply that all the characters are facing ghosts of their forebears, be they direct descendents, or other parental figures. The Hobbit and LOTR trilogy texts make it clear that both Baggins are 'afflicted' with something "Tookish"; a sense of adventure and curiosity not possessed by other hobbits. Tolkein makes frequent reference to the lineage, ancestry of his characters. Clearly that element of the characters was very important to him.

It could be that Jackson, in reading all of Tolkein's various works, felt that was a central theme of Tolkein's writing and decided to include it in the film versions, even adding it where Tolkein did not. Or it could be Jackson has his own issues and did it completely on his own.

Bard's was added as a sensible alternative to "A little birdy told me."

_________________
Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

Just proof there's nothing new under the sun...

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/a_little_bird_told_me



I wonder if the Sigurd legend was Tolkien's inspiration.

In a movie universe where Gandalf has talked to butterflies and Radagast not only exists but is shown.

_________________
“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

Fair enough, and he's probably influenced by all the literature that preceded him, considering he was basically a lit prof. Those themes are strong in a lot of older legend and mythology.

_________________
“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

Wizards /= Normal Man

I'm just glad I got see Gandalf being a... you know... wizard.

_________________
Les Zombis et les Loups-Garous!

Bard /= Normal Man.

_________________
“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

There's a difference there. When we're told Gandalf is a wizard, we think of Merlin. When a talking bird tells a nameless peon to shoot an arrow, it makes no sense.

_________________
Buckle your pants or they might fall down.

Lol. He isn't a nameless peon, but that's ok. The perception is probably correct, most people think of him that way I think.

_________________
“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

The spiders are heard speaking without issue (though the implication in the film is that they're speaking some form of Dark Speech, and the ring is able to translate when worn.

That said, the ravens speak to Bilbo, Thorin & Bard. (Donno how the Dwarves in the Iron Hills are going to know that Smaug is dead and that Erabor has been reclaimed, without Roäc Carc-son but eh...)

Stop it! I'm already ambivalent!

_________________
This cold and dark tormented hell
Is all I`ll ever know
So when you get to heaven
May the devil be the judge