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This Christmas Song Seems a Bit Hypocritical
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Author:  Numbuk [ Thu Dec 10, 2009 6:03 pm ]
Post subject:  This Christmas Song Seems a Bit Hypocritical
So I was flipping through the radio stations and I heard a rendition of The Little Drummer Boy. I instantly recognized the singer: Tori Amos. This didn't make much sense to me, as Tori is very much against organized religion and Christianity in particular. This wasn't even a "safe" Christmas song either (religion-less Christmas songs like Winter Wonderland). Is she just cashing in and selling out? Or has she tried to hock this off as being "ironic?"

I want to hear Trent Reznor sing "Away in a Manger" now.


For the record: I have no problems with people like Tori's viewpoints. I am just calling her out because this is an act that clearly defies her stated viewpoints (and I would expect someone do the same for me if I did the same).
Author:  Micheal [ Thu Dec 10, 2009 6:15 pm ]
Post subject: 
Selling out would only apply if she not only states her position against organized religion and specifically Christianity, but refuses to do anything to support others in their beliefs. Has she made any such stand? It isn't right for me is different from tearing the Pope's picture in half and calling religion and religious authority the enemy on Saturday Night Live. Of course seeing that action effectively ended Sinead O'Connor's career, Tori might be backing down from such an extreme activism and mellowing her image a little.

Right now she's just appears to be yet another politically active entertainer who doesn't truly understand what her positions mean.

"Pay me and I'll sing whatever you like sugar." is fine for the entertainer with no public positions on issues. For politically active entertainers, this type of move just makes them look a little insincere.
Author:  Numbuk [ Thu Dec 10, 2009 6:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: This Christmas Song Seems a Bit Hypocritical
I guess it's just as odd a pairing as Neil Diamond doing "Hark the Herald Angels Sing." Christmas albums = $$$, and I guess the almighty dollar is the true god of us all. ;-)
Author:  Micheal [ Thu Dec 10, 2009 6:28 pm ]
Post subject: 
Lets ask Monte, who does entertain for pay,
Monte - When someone asks for song that you disagree with the message or reason for,

- Do you refuse with political or ethical reasons explained?
- Do you decline politely, no one needs to know why?
- Or do you just sing it because that is what you are paid to be there for?
- Something else entirely, please explain.

Do you have an ethical position on this?

Is singing the song anyway selling out?

Do you dislike singing songs (for pay) that your political or ethical positions disagree with?

Or is it a case of professional ethics where your political and ethical positions were never discussed before signing the contract and you feel obliged to honor the contract?
Author:  Numbuk [ Thu Dec 10, 2009 6:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: This Christmas Song Seems a Bit Hypocritical
I guess the whole reason for my post was more to state that I found it a humorous and odd pairing of singer and song. But I do think that if a person ever does something for money that they disagree with (regardless of how strongly they disagree) that they are selling out. Just in varying degrees. This applies to people in the workplace too, not just entertainers.
Author:  Kaffis Mark V [ Thu Dec 10, 2009 8:42 pm ]
Post subject: 
I misread this title as "This Christmas Song Seems a Bit Hilarious" and thought you had stumbled on to the glory that is Stan Boreson and Doug Setterberg.
Author:  darksiege [ Thu Dec 10, 2009 9:08 pm ]
Post subject: 
Tori Amos can do no wrong. I do not care for her music.. but somewhere out there is a video of her doing a cover of Slayer's Raining Blood. This makes her WAAAA'GH
Author:  Rafael [ Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:17 am ]
Post subject: 
Hippies everywhere died. It was glorious.
Author:  Monte [ Fri Dec 11, 2009 1:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:
Micheal wrote:
Lets ask Monte, who does entertain for pay,
Monte - When someone asks for song that you disagree with the message or reason for,

- Do you refuse with political or ethical reasons explained?
- Do you decline politely, no one needs to know why?
- Or do you just sing it because that is what you are paid to be there for?
- Something else entirely, please explain.



Great question, and a complicated answer.

I find a lot of value in religious music, and sing it fairly frequently. In the music I write for the SCA, the Christian god is frequently mentioned. Why? Well, my persona is Spanish and is a devout catholic (as one might expect). For a time, I even wore a fairly elaborate crucifex, but stopped doing so for ethical reasons. I just didn't think it was terribly respectful of me to wear that symbol, even as part of my re-creation.

Around Christmas time, I am happy to sing Christmas songs, even though I'm not christian. I see them as works of art, and I enjoy singing them. However, I have to enjoy them. For example, I do a mean "O Holy Night". But I generally decline to sing songs like Jesu Bambino (mostly because I don't like them much). I couldn't really tell you where that line exists, but I know it when I see it.

Would I do a Christmas show? Yep. Would I do a Christmas show for an organization that worked hard to deny equal marriage rights? Not if it was just me, my guitar, and a microphone. I simply wouldn't take the gig. However, if I am in a play or doing fight work for a company, that stuff doesn't matter as much.

Quote:
Do you have an ethical position on this?

Is singing the song anyway selling out?

Do you dislike singing songs (for pay) that your political or ethical positions disagree with?


That depends. It's hard to disagree with some of the beauty that's out there when it comes to religious music, and it is very fun to perform.

I certainly wouldn't sing "Have a Homosexuality Free Christmas" or "God Hates Fags At Christmas Time", but those songs really don't exist. And if Focus on the Family offered to pay me to come sing at their office Christmas party, I would decline.

Quote:
Or is it a case of professional ethics where your political and ethical positions were never discussed before signing the contract and you feel obliged to honor the contract?
[/quote][/quote]

If I sign a contract, I hold myself to it unless I am asked to personally do something seriously distasteful, and that thing was not disclosed when I signed the contract (I dont sign a contract where I will be uncomfortable with something ethically). Again, there is some separation between doing a music gig and playing a part.

For example, if I was cast to play a homophobic bigot, I would dive into it head first. How best to display the horrors of that sort of bigotry than to really display it? I played Angelo in Measure for Measure, I had to play through a near rape scene. I am very much against sexual assault, domestic abuse, etc, and so I really threw myself into that scene in order to make it as jarring as I could.

I don't really care who my audience is, generally speaking, if I am in a play. I do care who I am working *for*, and what they do and how they do it.


edit - and as a final note, I would "sell out" in a heart beat. Which is to say, if some fancy producer came up to me tomorrow and offered me a bunch of money for a record contract, I'd take it. That being said, I would make sure they understand where my lines were. So I guess I would sell out, but only so far.
Author:  Müs [ Fri Dec 11, 2009 1:44 pm ]
Post subject: 
Thanks Monty!

(To "I'll be home for Christmas)

Fred Phelps:
God hates fags at christmas.
You can count on that.
Please have ham and heteros.
and not that bull dyke twat.

Fags will never find me
Here in East Kansas
God Hates Fags at Christmas
cause they take it in the...

<repeat 1x.>
Author:  Hopwin [ Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re:
Micheal wrote:
Lets ask Monte, who does entertain for pay,
Monte - When someone asks for song that you disagree with the message or reason for,

- Do you refuse with political or ethical reasons explained?
- Do you decline politely, no one needs to know why?
- Or do you just sing it because that is what you are paid to be there for?
- Something else entirely, please explain.

Do you have an ethical position on this?

Is singing the song anyway selling out?

Do you dislike singing songs (for pay) that your political or ethical positions disagree with?

Or is it a case of professional ethics where your political and ethical positions were never discussed before signing the contract and you feel obliged to honor the contract?


This line of question made me think of Clerks and the conversation about whether or not the contractors on the Death Star were innocent victims or guilty.
Author:  Serienya [ Sun Dec 13, 2009 1:20 pm ]
Post subject: 
Tori is not so much anti-Christianity, as more widely spiritual, but her grandmother was apparently a little bit on the ... fundamentalist side, and left her mark on Tori. She's more connected to her native American side now, IIRC. Also, I think her issues are more with organized religion than the faith itself.

Her take on "Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas" is heartbreaking, as it was inspired by her Dec. 24th miscarriage one year.
Author:  Taamar [ Sat Dec 19, 2009 3:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: This Christmas Song Seems a Bit Hypocritical
Tori is the daughter of a minister, so whatever her personal beliefs, Christianity has certainly been a major force in her life. She has stated that this album was inspired largely by her father, and she has said that she tried to remain reverent while exploring some of the other spiritual aspect of Christmas.

And Christianity is one of the biggest 'borrowers' from other faiths, so if it's hypocritical to do so it's not just Tori we'll have to tar and feather.
Author:  Serienya [ Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:40 pm ]
Post subject: 
She also has a new album of Christmas music. It's not bad, but I haven't heard it all yet. (Little Drummer Boy was a B-side from Under the Pink, actually, and not from the latest.)
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