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 Post subject: Hot Coffee
PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:49 am 
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Recently saw this documentary - "Hot Coffee" - about (among other things) the infamous McDonald's coffee lawsuit. Highly recommend it. It's certainly possible to come away still thinking McDonald's actions weren't negligent, but once you meet the woman who sued, see the extent of her burns, and learn the details of the case (e.g., McDonalds deliberately set their coffee temperature far higher than home coffee makers or other restaurants; this wasn't the first time someone had been severely burned; McDonald's refused to even cover her medical expenses; etc.), it's hard to still view the case as a farce.

Anyway, worth checking out if you get HBO.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:56 am 
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I believe among members here, Taamar's always been a big proponent of the Coffee Lady's case not being frivolous.

I don't know...I understand that McDonald's "set their coffee temperature higher," etc., but to me, it boils (heh) down to:

1. Coffee is supposed to be hot.
2. The injury was caused by the woman herself, not a fault of a McDonald's employee.
3. Wearing coffee as a groincloth is generally considered off-label use.


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:07 am 
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FarSky wrote:
I believe among members here, Taamar's always been a big proponent of the Coffee Lady's case not being frivolous.

I don't know...I understand that McDonald's "set their coffee temperature higher," etc., but to me, it boils (heh) down to:

1. Coffee is supposed to be hot.
2. The injury was caused by the woman herself, not a fault of a McDonald's employee.
3. Wearing coffee as a groincloth is generally considered off-label use.


So, I'm guessing you didn't watch it or either you ignored some of the information that was in it?


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:08 am 
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Not the Hot Coffee I was expecting just from the thread title. Didn't notice who was the OP until after.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:14 am 
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shuyung wrote:
Not the Hot Coffee I was expecting just from the thread title. Didn't notice who was the OP until after.


If it were related to the GTA game, it would be in the gaming forum, no?

And what does the OP have to do with anything?


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:23 am 
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FarSky wrote:
1. Coffee is supposed to be hot.
2. The injury was caused by the woman herself, not a fault of a McDonald's employee.
3. Wearing coffee as a groincloth is generally considered off-label use.

1. True, but the temp at which McDonald's was serving the coffee was much hotter than most other places - so hot that a spill would cause third-degree burns in a matter of a couple of seconds. There's "hot" and then there's "Hot Pocket hot". ;)

2. The incident took place in a "comparative negligence" state, which means the jury decides how much the plaintiff's actions contributed to the injury and then reduces her damage award accordingly. In this case, the jury decided she was partially at fault, but that most of the blame still lay with McDonald's, so they reduced her damages award by 20%. The judge then reduced the punitive award by 60%. The argument that McDonald's was negligent is based on the fact that (i) their coffee was so hot that it made injuries very likely (particularly when served at the drive-thru), (ii) customers wouldn't be fully aware of the risk because the coffee was much hotter than people would expect, and (iii) McDonald's, on the other hand, was fully aware of the risk, since they'd been warned by an internal risk study, and they were already aware of roughly 700 other burn incidents requiring medical attention.

3. Indeed, but a foreseeable risk of serving near-boiling coffee at the drive-thru.


Last edited by RangerDave on Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:29 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:25 am 
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Sam wrote:
And what does the OP have to do with anything?

I'm much more likely to post about a lawsuit than about GTA! :D


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:41 am 
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First, no, I haven't seen the documentary.

Re: the trial [from Wikipedia]:

Quote:
Trial and verdict
The trial took place from August 8–17, 1994, before Judge Robert H. Scott. During the case, Liebeck's attorneys discovered that McDonald's required franchises to serve coffee at 180–190 °F (82–88 °C). At that temperature, the coffee would cause a third-degree burn in two to seven seconds. Stella Liebeck's attorney argued that coffee should never be served hotter than 140 °F (60 °C), and that a number of other establishments served coffee at a substantially lower temperature than McDonald's. Liebeck's lawyers presented the jury with evidence that 180 °F (82 °C) coffee like that McDonald’s served may produce third-degree burns (where skin grafting is necessary) in about 12 to 15 seconds. Lowering the temperature to 160 °F (71 °C) would increase the time for the coffee to produce such a burn to 20 seconds. (A British court later rejected this argument as scientifically false finding that 149 °F (65 °C) liquid could cause deep tissue damage in only two seconds.) Liebeck's attorneys argued that these extra seconds could provide adequate time to remove the coffee from exposed skin, thereby preventing many burns. McDonald's claimed that the reason for serving such hot coffee in its drive-through windows was that those who purchased the coffee typically were commuters who wanted to drive a distance with the coffee; the high initial temperature would keep the coffee hot during the trip. McDonalds research showed customers intend to consume the coffee while driving to their destination.

Other documents obtained from McDonald's showed that from 1982 to 1992 the company had received more than 700 reports of people burned by McDonald's coffee to varying degrees of severity, and had settled claims arising from scalding injuries for more than $500,000. McDonald's quality control manager, Christopher Appleton, testified that this number of injuries was insufficient to cause the company to evaluate its practices. He argued that all foods hotter than 130 °F (54 °C) constituted a burn hazard, and that restaurants had more pressing dangers to warn about. The plaintiffs argued that Appleton conceded that McDonald's coffee would burn the mouth and throat if consumed when served.

A twelve-person jury reached its verdict on August 18, 1994. Applying the principles of comparative negligence, the jury found that McDonald's was 80% responsible for the incident and Liebeck was 20% at fault. Though there was a warning on the coffee cup, the jury decided that the warning was neither large enough nor sufficient. They awarded Liebeck US$200,000 in compensatory damages, which was then reduced by 20% to $160,000. In addition, they awarded her $2.7 million in punitive damages. The jurors apparently arrived at this figure from Morgan's suggestion to penalize McDonald's for one or two days' worth of coffee revenues, which were about $1.35 million per day. The judge reduced punitive damages to $480,000, three times the compensatory amount, for a total of $640,000. The decision was appealed by both McDonald's and Liebeck in December 1994, but the parties settled out of court for an undisclosed amount less than $600,000.


Emphasis mine.

My point isn't that she didn't have a case, but rather, that I don't think McDonald's should have been held responsible for it. If you want to use comparative negligence, I suppose I'd say the verdict should be switched...McDonald's being only 20% at fault, Liebeck herself 80%.

Some items of my opinion to note:

1. Liebeck's burns being severe is no reason to award her money (i.e. I'm saying that if McDonald's wanted to pay her something, great, but sympathy shouldn't be a reason to award her the money). I bring this up because whenever I see the suit raised, emphasis is always placed on "But did you see how badly she was burned?" And if she'd been boiling water at home, and spilled the kettle on herself, who then is at fault? Not the water treatment plant, not the stove or kettle manufacturer, but her. And not because the water can be superheated, but because she spilled it on herself.
2. Coffee is very hot. It burns. That's how it's supposed to be, and the idea that coffee is served very hot constitutes, to me, a reasonable expectation of exceptional care in handling it.
3. To me, the idea of coffee = hot is a given, and the value of hot is a non-issue. The accident is not "she spilled extremely hot coffee on herself," but rather, "she spilled coffee on herself." It's a given (again, to me, and I'm well aware that not everyone agrees) that coffee is hot, which is why you (general public you) avoid spilling it on yourself. Thus, it is the act of spilling that is the issue. Had the McDonald's employee tripped or otherwise accidentally (or intentionally) spilled the coffee on Liebeck, then most certainly I'd find McDonald's at fault. But find them at fault for serving a requested hot beverage hot? I can't get behind that.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 12:23 pm 
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Fair enough. Like I said, I don't think knowing the full story precludes one from disagreeing with the outcome of the case; I just think it makes it much harder to consider the whole thing an obvious farce.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 12:36 pm 
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She should have put the balm on it.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 1:11 pm 
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Farsky: I suggest you watch the documovie on this. It may change your outlook on this case (or it may not). I found it interesting even though I had no interest in the case at the time.

Parts I found interesting are the woman's first "wants" from McD's that led to her suing the company. The other part is the fact McD's changed their cup tops after this case to save future leaks/spills.

IIRC all the woman wanted to begin with was help with her medical bills. And McD's denied, so she ended up suing them.


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 Post subject: Re: Hot Coffee
PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 1:54 pm 
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I brew coffee at about 200 degrees (easiest way to get the proper coffee brewing temp is to bring water to a boil, then take it off the heat for about 5 seconds).


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 1:55 pm 
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None of that addresses Farsky's point. Had the woman boiled water in her own kitchen (212 degrees Fahrenheit - much higher temperature than McDonald's coffee) and spilled it upon herself, who would have been liable for the damages?

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 2:01 pm 
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Corolinth wrote:
None of that addresses Farsky's point. Had the woman boiled water in her own kitchen (212 degrees Fahrenheit - much higher temperature than McDonald's coffee) and spilled it upon herself, who would have been liable for the damages?


Or more fitting yet, if she was brewing coffee at home (at 15-20 degrees higher than what McDonald's served for proper brewing temp) and spilled it on herself?


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 2:04 pm 
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Well, the salient point here is the temperature of the water. The nature of the drink she's preparing at home is somewhat less relevant. For example, she could be preparing tea instead. Or she could be using the boiling water for some sort of cooking purpose.

What really matters, and what Farsky is driving at, is that grown adults safely handle water at a higher temperature than McDonald's coffee all the time.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 2:10 pm 
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Oh, I know...I was just kinda tied that in, because part of the case was how hot McDonald's served their coffee.

And that amused me since coffee is *supposed* to be brewed even hotter.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 2:11 pm 
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Woman was an idiot that didn't deserve a penny. This was rewarding stupidity.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 3:04 pm 
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Why do people automatically assume that this woman just simply dumped the coffee out in her lap? (I wasn't there so I don't know)

Isn't it just as plausible that the lid was deformed, not on completely, or simply had a leak?


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 3:12 pm 
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Sam wrote:
Isn't it just as plausible that the lid was deformed, not on completely, or simply had a leak?


She removed the lid so she could add cream and sugar while in the car.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 3:16 pm 
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Wiki sez:

Quote:
Burn incident
On February 27, 1992, Stella Liebeck, a 79-year-old woman from Albuquerque, New Mexico, ordered a 49-cent cup of coffee from the drive-through window of a local McDonald's restaurant. Liebeck was in the passenger's seat of her Ford Probe, and her nephew Chris parked the car so that Liebeck could add cream and sugar to her coffee. Liebeck placed the coffee cup between her knees and pulled the far side of the lid toward her to remove it. In the process, she spilled the entire cup of coffee on her lap. Liebeck was wearing cotton sweatpants; they absorbed the coffee and held it against her skin, scalding her thighs, buttocks, and groin.

The two legitimate reasons I can see for having McDonald's shoulder the blame are if:
A) The employee spilled it on her, or
B) The lid/cup was improperly sealed or poorly manufactured, causing (through no fault of the woman herself) the liquid to spill out of the container, burning her.

Either would definitely put McDonald's at fault 100%, in my opinion. Neither appears to be the case, however.

Also, please note that I use the term "award" rather than "reward" in regards to the judgment. I do not believe Stella Liebeck was out to take McDonald's for its vast sums of money (at least initially; I think when lawyers got involved, the matter changed...sorry, RD :)). I also don't believe that Liebeck spilled the coffee intentionally, nor did she exaggerate the extent of her wounds. I also believe that McDonald's would have been lauded for paying, unbidden, her medical expenses and lost wages; however, doing so would have opened the company up to untold amounts of trouble, so I easily can see why they did not.

I see no cause to demonize Liebeck, but I do believe that McDonald's wasn't at fault.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 3:40 pm 
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I stand corrected. You are right Mr Farsky.


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