Fair enough. But by that measure... Jack Ryan's a Marty Stu as well
I don't think Honor's anywhere near the Mary Sue that say... .Bella Swan is
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| Harrington:How Weber won & lost me over a single vacation https://gladerebooted.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=8258 |
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| Author: | Talya [ Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Harrington:How Weber won & lost me over a single vacation |
With so many Gladers who I like reading David Weber's Honor Harrington books, I decided to start reading them before I went on vacation. I don't know if I got 6 or 7 books in, but while they captivated me to start with, with plots worthy of Tom Clancy himself, and a strong female lead, it was that very strong female lead that caused me to lose interest over the week as well. Honor Harrington is the quintessential "Mary Sue." She fits almost every single cliché that make up the definition of the term, right down to the exotic pet. She's perfect (except for difficulty with certain advanced multidimensional mathematical equations...damn.) She is the perfect strategist, tactician, gun duelist, sword duelist. She's beautiful, but thinks she's ugly. She does everything right, yet the universe condemns her for it.... and with every book the situation gets worse. This is without mentioning the fact that that jerk Stielman was right - her butcher's bill is just way too high at the end of every single novel, where she's ripped yet another ship to shreds and lost 75% of her crew in gruesome fashion. (I wouldn't want to serve under her.) I have other complaints that would push this thread into Hellfire, so I'll leave them alone. It's really too bad, though. Weber seems able to create a decent story, and certainly an interesting setting, but they are just too flawed. |
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| Author: | Müs [ Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Mary Sues don't ever suffer loss. Honor loses quite a lot. Sure, she's awesome... but there are substantial penalties for being her. |
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| Author: | Talya [ Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Mary Sues can lose, they just come out on top in the end. Heck, just do a Google search on the terms "Mary Sue" and Honor Harrington together, I'm certainly not the first one who's noticed. |
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| Author: | Müs [ Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Fair enough. But by that measure... Jack Ryan's a Marty Stu as well I don't think Honor's anywhere near the Mary Sue that say... .Bella Swan is
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| Author: | TheRiov [ Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:15 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Jack Ryan isn't good at everything though. |
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| Author: | Talya [ Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: |
Müs wrote: Fair enough. But by that measure... Jack Ryan's a Marty Stu as well Jack Ryan is only ever really good at one thing, really...and that's a somewhat nebulous intelligence related thing at that. He's not a fighter, he's not superman in any sense of the word. That said, I got bored of Clancy a long, long time ago. I find Weber can get overly verbose at times (he's not the only writer with that flaw)...and his books are a third the size of a Clancy novel. Clancy is just way too loquacious. Quote: I don't think Honor's anywhere near the Mary Sue that say... .Bella Swan is To be fair, I'd have to google Bella Swan. Though I have a hunch who it is, and the hunch is telling me I don't care enough to google her. |
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| Author: | Khross [ Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Harrington:How Weber won & lost me over a single vacatio |
Honor Harrington isn't a Mary Sue; she's Ariadne. |
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| Author: | Müs [ Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:01 pm ] |
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Well... from what I understand, Honor is Horatio Hornblower. How that relates to Ariadne... I dunno. |
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| Author: | Talya [ Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
It is true that there is a frequent element among MarySue-type characters that is missing from HH: I do not think she's a surrogate for David Weber. But she has so many of the common qualities a Mary Sue would have, it's hard not to fault her as such. Quick, non-exhaustive examples: -remarkably beautiful (bonus points for thinking she is ugly) -unusually tall -lopsided grin caused by facial reconstruction, which somehow doesn't detract from her appearance. -unusual magical speshul animal pet -carries a katana -the only living holder of a planet's highest medal of honor - and women are (were) property there. (She singlehandedly beat sexism on grayson!) -She is unusually quiet and calm at all times -Her name is a noun not commonly used as a hame. -She looks younger than she actually is -she regularly wears black (not fair, the RMN uniform is black) -she is remarkably graceful -she was traumatized by attempted rape -she's a bit psychic (unique empathic link to treecat that nobody else in the universe has) -She's a countess and a knight -she blames herself for {insert any one of a hundred things that aren't her fault}...more angst please -she is persecuted by many authority figures (including the stereotypical "for turning down sexual advances" and "for being right when the authority figure was wrong") -Her lover was tragically murdered (and she even blames herself!) -You can tell the good guys from the bad guys by their opinion of her -Weber will switch viewpoints just so one of the other characters can talk about how wonderful/brave/strong/attractive HH is -She never loses an evenly matched battle -- either naval or personal. Hell, she wins hundreds of ones where she's utterly outmatched, too. I could probably keep going, but yeah. It feels very...fanfictiony at times. |
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| Author: | FarSky [ Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Bella Swan is the Twilight chick. Additionally, my brain is poorer for knowing that. I have to live with that knowledge every day of my life. Also, Mary Sues Can Lose sounds like a distaff version of '80s sitcom Parker Lewis Can't Lose. |
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| Author: | Numbuk [ Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: |
Talya wrote: -she was traumatized by attempted rape This is a commonality amongst Mary Sues? I know when I fantasize about alter-egos of my ideal self, being raped is generally not a part of it. But then maybe I'm just weird. |
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| Author: | Dalantia [ Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Harrington:How Weber won & lost me over a single vacatio |
At this point, it's common enough as a cheap sympathy ploy that it's become a sign of sueism? |
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| Author: | Rorinthas [ Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Harrington:How Weber won & lost me over a single vacation |
You may have a point, but as I was unfamiliar with the characterization, your analysis doesn't phase me. |
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| Author: | Diamondeye [ Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Harrington:How Weber won & lost me over a single vacatio |
I'd say that some of these criticisms are accurate, specifically the katana one, the somewhat overdone proficiency with swords and guns, and the treecat thing that gets a bit over the top in the later books. (She doesn't actually carry a katana around with her most of the time; she just owns one). However, some of them don't make sense. For example, looks much younger than she is: Every Manticoran, and quite a few people from the Solarian League and a few other star nations have access to prolong which allows lifespans of several hundred years - so practically everyone except for those few characters from poor star nations looks younger than they are. Lots of people have treecat pets. Honor just has the (admittedly poorly-justified) extra special link to Nimitz because she spends so much time around treecats, supposely, although I don't really get how she's spent more time than anyone else. As you pointed out, the RMN uniforms are all black. Her name is a play on Horatio Hornblower, which isn't quite the same as normal Mary Sue naming.. usually allusion to a different fictional series altogether is not one of the conventions. The only authority figure she gets persecuted by for sexual advances is Pavel Young, and he's not really much of an authority figure; Spoiler: Beating sexism single-handedly on Grayson was a bit much, but on the other hand saving an entire world from nuclear bombardment is likely to make them re-examine notions of your ineptitude, especially when that's going to give them access to your kingdom's technological goodies. The biggest thing however, is that Honorverse is FULL of Mary Sues. Honor is the main character, and a bit worse, but that's partly just the fact that she's the main character. You don't see the other characters that often, but if you look carefully, except for the occasional person Weber wants to be otherwise, every member of the RMN is a model of professionalism, integrity, and self-sacrifice, not just in willingness to get blown up but in an absurdly good work ethic and generally at least the officers among their enemies are too. The People's Commissioners are, with one exception that strike me off the top of my head, idiots encumbering the Havenite Navy's officers who are generally described as competent. Unfortunately, Weber waited till a lot later to expose some important things that make Honor less overdone, specifically Shadow of Saganami and Storm from the Shadows. In these, Honor is more or less a side character and you get more of a glimpse about how any Manticoran outside of a few villians and the strawman politicals that oppose the Queen and the Centrists, All Manticorans are just a bit overly perfect. There's also the fact that Honor ususally has a technological advantage by virtue of being Manticoran, and in some cases, she's about to lose when she gets a last-minute rescue.. which is a trait of main characters everywhere, Mary Sue or not. As to the body counts, they are bad but part of that is that Honor's battles are the ones we see. Since through most of the early-middle books Spoiler: I can understand some of the compaints; Honor is overdone in some ways, but she just doesn't feel Mary Sue-ish to me. Especially the "angsty" things; She mainly just confines them to her romantic life and isn't constantly moaning about them so I don't think they're done in a Sue-ish way even if they might technically fit the trope. |
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| Author: | Raltar [ Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Harrington:How Weber won & lost me over a single vacatio |
Diamondeye wrote: I can understand some of the compaints; Honor is overdone in some ways, but she just doesn't feel Mary Sue-ish to me. Especially the "angsty" things; She mainly just confines them to her romantic life and isn't constantly moaning about them so I don't think they're done in a Sue-ish way even if they might technically fit the trope. You only say this because you are fan and for some reason it's considered bad to be a fan of a Mary Sue character. This thread is the very first I've ever heard of this character and she sounds very Mary Sue-ish. |
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| Author: | Diamondeye [ Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Harrington:How Weber won & lost me over a single vacatio |
Raltar wrote: Diamondeye wrote: I can understand some of the compaints; Honor is overdone in some ways, but she just doesn't feel Mary Sue-ish to me. Especially the "angsty" things; She mainly just confines them to her romantic life and isn't constantly moaning about them so I don't think they're done in a Sue-ish way even if they might technically fit the trope. You only say this because you are fan and for some reason it's considered bad to be a fan of a Mary Sue character. This thread is the very first I've ever heard of this character and she sounds very Mary Sue-ish. I only say this because I'm a fan, but you're basing your opinion exclusively on a few bullet points put forth in one thread when you've never even heard of the character before? I have news for you, Talya's description is not intended to be an impartial relating of the facts; it's intended to convey her opinion. You know what's worse than being a fan of a "Mary Sue" character? Deciding a character sounds Mary Sue-ish because one person said she was on the internet. Here's anther thing: The fans of a Mary Sue, by nature, do not tend to "understand some of the complaints"; they just wank off mindlessly. |
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| Author: | Aegnor [ Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
I've read an article going into detail on how the term "Mary Sue" is a sexist term. Something about how it is only used for female characters. There is a term for the male version of a Mary Sue, several of them, but they are rarely actually used even though many male characters fit quite a few elements of the description. |
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| Author: | Talya [ Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: |
Aegnor wrote: I've read an article going into detail on how the term "Mary Sue" is a sexist term. Something about how it is only used for female characters. There is a term for the male version of a Mary Sue, several of them, but they are rarely actually used even though many male characters fit quite a few elements of the description. The term has its origins in Star Trek fan fiction, which was mostly written by teenage girls. As is most fan fic, I think. So yeah. Facts can be so sexist. |
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| Author: | Corolinth [ Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
My favorite eternal n00b friend in EQ has taught me that much fan fiction is actually written by women in their 30s and 40s. |
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| Author: | Diamondeye [ Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Harrington:How Weber won & lost me over a single vacatio |
Depends what you mean by fan fiction. Fan fiction written by girls and women will be wanking off to the "girl power" of Mary Sue, or sometimes more than one (Thirty Sue Pileup anyone?). Male fanfiction will tend to wank off to the tech, especially the weapons, vehicles, and ships, or the magic and magical items and gear if it's fantasy. I haven't read that much; generally it's cringe-inducing. |
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| Author: | Talya [ Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Harrington:How Weber won & lost me over a single vacatio |
Diamondeye wrote: Fan fiction written by girls and women will be wanking off to the "girl power" of Mary Sue, or sometimes more than one (Thirty Sue Pileup anyone?). Ha. Not the type Corolinth is referring to... In fact, I would go so far as to refer to Kharessa's work as a bit of a "sausage-fest." |
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| Author: | Aegnor [ Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Re: |
Talya wrote: Aegnor wrote: I've read an article going into detail on how the term "Mary Sue" is a sexist term. Something about how it is only used for female characters. There is a term for the male version of a Mary Sue, several of them, but they are rarely actually used even though many male characters fit quite a few elements of the description. The term has its origins in Star Trek fan fiction, which was mostly written by teenage girls. As is most fan fic, I think. So yeah. Facts can be so sexist. I tracked down the article. http://rosesmusings.tumblr.com/post/13915498080/mary-sue-what-are-you-or-why-the-concept-of-sue-is Not commenting on the truth of her argument, just adding it to the conversation. |
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| Author: | Müs [ Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:37 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Quote: “I don’t like this female character. I don’t like that this woman is powerful. I don’t like it when the plot focuses on her. I don’t like that a character I like has affections for her.” It has nothing to do with that. Jeebus lady, bitter much? |
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| Author: | Diamondeye [ Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: |
Müs wrote: Quote: “I don’t like this female character. I don’t like that this woman is powerful. I don’t like it when the plot focuses on her. I don’t like that a character I like has affections for her.” It has nothing to do with that. Jeebus lady, bitter much? I love it. "Batman and Spiderman are just like Mary Sue!" No kidding. They're superheroes. If you write a female superhero fanfic, you're a lot less likely to get a Mary Sue because she's supposed to have superpowers - unless you just go totally overboard and make her inexplicably wonderful at a ton of things unrelated to her superpowers. Evidently she's not aware of the amount of hate directed at Wesley Crusher, either. Really want to know why male Mary Sues don't exist? Because male fanfic writers are a lot more likely to simply be writing about the combat, and therefore not to create all the wangsty background a Mary Sue has. They really just want to get down to lopping off heads with katanas or blasting zombies with shotguns, or aliens with rayguns, or flinging nuclear missiles at enemy ships. This can result in writing just as bad; it just isn't bad in the same way. It doesn't make any sense for male wish fulfillment writing to result in male Mary Sues because male wish fulfillment works differently than female. Then of course, there's the fact that men are a lot more likely to write about female mains, or play them in RPGs than the reverse. To this date I've encountered exactly one girl that plays a male character in WoW - my daughter, and she doesn't only play males (or rather didn't; she's quit) Yeah, there's some big-time sexism, lady. 
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| Author: | RangerDave [ Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Harrington:How Weber won & lost me over a single vacatio |
I tend to find explicitly feminist critiques annoying and off the mark, but I gotta say, I think I agree with that article to a large extent. There are tons of male Mary Sues out there, but no one calls them such. Batman, Luke Skywalker, Neo, Harry Potter, Flash Gordon, Conan (or basically any of Schwarzenegger's characters), Rambo, Jack Ryan, Paul Atreides, etc. As DE said, male wish-fulfillment characters tend to highlight different qualities than female wish-fulfillment characters, but my understanding is that it's the unrealistic wish fulfillment aspect that makes a character a "Mary Sue", not the particular qualities that define the wish. *ETA Paul Atreides to the list, 'cuz damn if he ain't a perfect Mary Sue. |
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