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Loyalty Program
https://gladerebooted.net/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=4155		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Midgen [ Wed Sep 15, 2010 9:45 am ]
Post subject:  Loyalty Program
The more I read about and ponder the new Loyalty Program, the more mind boggling it becomes. I just cannot fathom how anyone with any common sense thought this was a good idea.

Here are a couple of threads running on the eqlive boards, with devs actually posting in them, mostly stabbing themselves in the face saying they "fixed" it, while it's still apparently quite broken. It's obvious that they did not think this through either logistically or technically.

4 Pages: http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts ... _id=168473
23 Pages: http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts ... _id=168205

If the system worked properly, anyone who has had 12 months of consecutive active account time, effectively has nearly 600k platinum at their disposal (across their account, if that is how they choose to redeem their tokens), while new players coming back from a break, even if it was just a month, effectively have zero, and have their rate of accumulation (velocity) reset to zero. With it not working properly, many players who were supposed to be rewarded under the system were not, presumably because they used game cards, or because their account lapsed for a day or more while they were re-applying an expired card or whatever. Also, apparently, many players were rewarded tokens that should not have been. They publicly admitted that some characters were rolled back because of this.

And even if it hadn't been a catastrophe technically, with all of the bugs, the timing was terrible, coinciding with the launch of the new server. People being able to effectively buy platinum (1 "Bag of Platinum" from the Loyalty Vendor = ~15k plat) in large quantities (up to ~600k if that is how you chose to spend your full alotment), effectively killed Trakanons economy in terms of it being an even playing field (I'm sure this was one of the attractions for choosing this server). Prices on low level items are inflated so badly that people who are just (re)starting (don't have loyalty points, or velocity) are struggling just to get started compared to their more fortunate server mates.

This, combined with the 'softening' of the game has the server already with level 80 characters, and guilds raiding anguish!? It's kind of depressing to watch actually. Don't get me wrong. Playing on the new server is plenty of fun, but mostly I think just for having guildmates to group/chat with, etc... (which could have happened on any established server) I'm just kinda miffed that they could botch this so badly in such a short amount of time.

Meh.. anyway, don't mind me. I'm probably just being cranky because I've been sick for nearly a week. :p~~
Author:  Diamondeye [ Wed Sep 15, 2010 9:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Loyalty Program
Well, since I lucked out with the tokens, I'm willing to help out anyone who needs some.. within reason. ;) I think the "bag of platinum" wasn't the best idea, although it seems like there are a lot more plat sinks than there used to be.

The economy does seem a bit distorted for a new server, but not ridiculously so. There just aren't that many traders or that much gear for sale yet, and most of what is, seems to be augments or defiant gear and if people jack the prices up on that, those without cash will just say "screw it, I'll wait for the drop". If the sellers price 75% of the server out of the market entirely.. well, they won't be selling much.

Still, I'm not conviced it was a good idea despite my personal good fortune. It seems like money was already coming in a lot more easily than it has in the past. I don't know what the hell I would do with 600,000 plat if I went that route.
Author:  NephyrS [ Wed Sep 15, 2010 10:17 am ]
Post subject: 
I think it was mostly the kneejerk reaction to multiply all starting token bonuses by 10 that was the problem.

Some people are seeing problems, but when I petitioned (I had way too few tokens) with the exact dates of my last 6 payments, I was bumped to the proper amount within the hour.

Honestly, I think the code just was a lot more complicated on the billing end than they thought it would be.

312 tokens starting off for maxed players wouldn't have been too bad- even on Trak. 3120, on the other hand, was horrible. I think that was just their pacification to the angry mob, and they didn't realize the side effects on Trak.

That said, on any of the developed servers, most of the other "currency" rewards are worth way more than the bags of plat.

I can get the equivalent of 1000k or thereabouts, spending it buying Phosphenes- although the price is starting to drop.

Even buying Radiant/Ebon crystals at 100 per bag for 7 tokens is a better deal.The augs from there are still quite useful, and for about 21 tokens i can get an aug that sells for 20k or so on FV.

I think a lot of people are holding off, and spending the tokens on other more valuable rewards- everywhere but Trak.
Author:  NephyrS [ Wed Sep 15, 2010 10:23 am ]
Post subject: 
Most recent post on loyalty calculations:

Ngreth wrote:
There were 3 issues with the calculations that were changed with this re-calculation.

Before: It only checked your most recent subscription type. So if you changed types (and posibly cards)... it did not include any previous time

Before: If your account was suspended due to GM action anytime in the period, you got 0.

Before: there was an error with the 24 month subscription calculation.

For all of these (actually really all cases) we changed the method to where now it just looks at your total subscribed time in the 365 day period we are checking, and uses the number of subscribed days. This will be used for your initial grant and initial velocity.

Going forward.

If your account is inactive at the time of a weekly grant, you will NOT get that grant. It takes 5 days of non-payment for your account to become inactive, so there is leeway there.

If your account is inactive for 1 month, you loose 30 velocity. This repeats every month your are inactive. As mentioned above you will also not be accruing points in this time.
Author:  SuiNeko [ Wed Sep 15, 2010 11:11 am ]
Post subject: 
How can anyone take EQ seriously now that it's all about how much cash you put into the SOE machine?

Veteran rewards, Station Cash, Loyalty cash, etc... Man, makes me a sad panda ;(
Author:  NephyrS [ Wed Sep 15, 2010 11:23 am ]
Post subject: 
Eh, station cash has little to no effect on the game.

Veterans Rewards are awesome.

The loyalty system has the potential to be great, if they just had waited to push it out- and tweaked it a bit.
Author:  Kaffis Mark V [ Wed Sep 15, 2010 11:36 am ]
Post subject: 
Ah, here's the Sony incompetence I'd almost forgotten about.

Good thing I got a reminder before I got too excited about the talk of EQ Next.
Author:  SuiNeko [ Wed Sep 15, 2010 11:59 am ]
Post subject: 
Veteran rewards are awesome - I had 8 years when I cancelled. Maybe 10 actually... But I hate how they're 'earned'
Author:  Ladas [ Wed Sep 15, 2010 12:15 pm ]
Post subject: 
I don't follow Sui... you earned the vet rewards by playing the game...
Author:  Midgen [ Wed Sep 15, 2010 12:26 pm ]
Post subject: 
Actually, for me, I don't mind the Veteran Rewards. It's based on active subscription time over the lifetime of the account, and apparently they do a decent job of tracking that.

This new program is based on consecutive active time over the last 12 months, and if you let it lapse for any reason, you reset your 'velocity' (accumulation rate) back to zero. Which means I could be a 11.5 year subscriber and let my subscription lapse for only a month, last month, and basically not get anything at all.

To make matters worse, according to a dev post in one of those threads, they are going to scale back the Veteran Rewards and make them less powerful (less impacting to the game), in lieu of these new 'Loyalty Crowns' or whatever they are calling them.

I don't know much about the high end game currencies that NephyrS is talking about. I'm sure they are very useful, but as a very casual, "never-had-a-character-higher-than-65" player, I really don't see much value in the Loyalty Vendor purchased stuff, except for the bags of plat. The veteran rewards are useful to players of every level, and are (mostly) re-usable buff type things.

Anyway, I definitely don't begrudge anyone taking advantage of the program. I would certainly be buying up bags of platinum if I had the option.

It's SoE that I'm directing my angst at.
Author:  Ladas [ Wed Sep 15, 2010 12:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:
Midgen wrote:
I don't know much about the high end game currencies that NephyrS is talking about. I'm sure they are very useful, but as a very casual, "never-had-a-character-higher-than-65" player, I really don't see much value in the Loyalty Vendor purchased stuff, except for the bags of plat. The veteran rewards are useful to players of every level, and are (mostly) re-usable buff type things.


Most of the benefit of the alternate currencies at the group level, casual game, except potentially in Burning Seas, where they had 3 different currencies. In Underfoot, there are maybe 2 items I would be interested in using my Brellium to buy, and one I got as a chest reward for a task, and the other I just haven't taken the time to go buy and place in an aug slot. However, for those using the expansion to upgrade group gear from previous expansions, there is a ton of good stuff. A lot of it can also be found on named in the various zones as rare drops, or from task reward chests, but this gives you a means to not have to redo a task, or camp a named for hours.
Author:  SuiNeko [ Wed Sep 15, 2010 3:23 pm ]
Post subject: 
Its nothing to do with playing the game, or contributing to the community, or developing the world of Everquest.

Its to do with paying SOE, regardless of whether you even log in.

It completely misses the point (for me) of EQ - it's a direct 'give SOE cash, get power' system.

That sucks.

The fact I am still posting suggests , though, that I am still jonesing for EQ of 1998 ;-p
Author:  Ladas [ Wed Sep 15, 2010 3:37 pm ]
Post subject: 
The Vet rewards were incidental to playing the game, and everything you listed as the "good" side of EQ required the same activity as qualifying for Vet Rewards.

I don't understand the ire at them. Now, if they were sold via station cash, that would be different.
Author:  SuiNeko [ Wed Sep 15, 2010 3:49 pm ]
Post subject: 
EQ required paying to play full stop, its true.

Nothing else in EQ required *only* paying though. It also required *playing* - contributing to the world.


Or didn't, back then.
Author:  RangerDave [ Thu Sep 16, 2010 11:39 am ]
Post subject: 
Fyi, if anyone else is seeing an unusually low number for their velocity on the Inventory window, it's apparently just a graphics bug. You can see your correct velocity number on the Welcome Screen.
Author:  NephyrS [ Thu Sep 16, 2010 11:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re:
Midgen wrote:
This new program is based on consecutive active time over the last 12 months, and if you let it lapse for any reason, you reset your 'velocity' (accumulation rate) back to zero. Which means I could be a 11.5 year subscriber and let my subscription lapse for only a month, last month, and basically not get anything at all.

To make matters worse, according to a dev post in one of those threads, they are going to scale back the Veteran Rewards and make them less powerful (less impacting to the game), in lieu of these new 'Loyalty Crowns' or whatever they are calling them.


I don't believe either of these points is correct.

There are currently bugs with harsher than intended resets on your velocity, but that's not how its supposed to work (see Ngreth's post above).

You have a 5 day lag time between active subs, and for each month you're not actively subscribed you lose 3 months worth of velocity- it doesn't reset it to 0.

And they aren't scaling back the power of Vet rewards because of this.... They started scaling them back a long time ago, for the very reason Sui is stating. The game breaking/making power of the 7th year Vet reward was way more than intended- they're supposed to be cool bonuses (ie, summoning a vendor/banker, free gate/rez), not things that directly impact your power in game. After the mistake with the 7th year reward, they said that they didn't want you to be more powerful than your neighbor just because you've been paying for an active sub longer.

And there's in fact a dev post saying that Vet rewards and Loyalty are supposed to reward different things- Vet rewards are something you have for having played for a long time- even with breaks- while Loyalty is supposed to reward consistent, recent playtime.

Neither is supposed to add power that you can't get through other means.

And honestly, 15k per week is really easy to earn 70+, just getting cash drops and vendoring them.
Author:  RangerDave [ Thu Sep 16, 2010 12:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:
SuiNeko wrote:
How can anyone take EQ seriously now that it's all about how much cash you put into the SOE machine?(

SuiNeko wrote:
Nothing else in EQ required *only* paying though. It also required *playing* - contributing to the world.


I get where you're coming from Sui - I have no interest in games where progression and/or most of the "cool" stuff is RMT/subscription-based. That said, I don't mind (and honestly quite enjoy) having some fluff and even a bit of a convenience/power boost available via RMT, as long as it doesn't go too far. And I really don't think EQ has gone too far down that road at this point. Most of the RMT/subscription items and effects in EQ really are just extra fluff, and even the substantive ones aren't game-changing. Progression and the vast majority of rewards are still based on in-game actions.
Author:  Ladas [ Thu Sep 16, 2010 12:43 pm ]
Post subject: 
What is RMT?
Author:  RangerDave [ Thu Sep 16, 2010 12:48 pm ]
Post subject: 
"Real Money Transaction" or "Real Money Trading". Basically paying real-world cash for in-game stuff.
Author:  Ladas [ Thu Sep 16, 2010 2:01 pm ]
Post subject: 
Ahh. I must have been having a brain fart, because I just couldn't come with words that fit.

The two most obvious avenues are via LoN and Station Cash. However, both of those systems exist with automatic rewards that allow you "use" the system without actually paying additional money for in game power.

And SoE has been pretty clear about trying to make sure any "power" available in those two avenues doesn't require micro transactions.

They have missed that goal a couple times that I have seen, primarily from LoN items, but it has been pretty clear.

It might take longer to rely on the "free" method. For example, every month you get a deposit of Station Cash to your account... I don't recall the amount since I have used the Station thing 2x... once because they made available free shared experience potions (casts a group buff that enhances exp gain) and once to use my saved station cash to buy a potion that gives 100% salvage rate on failed TS combines for a period of time.
Author:  NephyrS [ Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:
Ladas wrote:
It might take longer to rely on the "free" method. For example, every month you get a deposit of Station Cash to your account... I don't recall the amount since I have used the Station thing 2x... once because they made available free shared experience potions (casts a group buff that enhances exp gain) and once to use my saved station cash to buy a potion that gives 100% salvage rate on failed TS combines for a period of time.


Wait, we're supposed to be getting monthly station cash? Really?

I've just gotten it from the UF pack (400 per account).

LoN, I know you get 5 booster packs per month. Didn't know about the station cash.

Would be nice, could buy some ornaments for my uglier weapons.
Author:  Ladas [ Fri Sep 17, 2010 8:20 am ]
Post subject: 
Yes, I believe you get a small amount of station cash added to your account each month. At least that is what I recall being told.
Author:  NephyrS [ Fri Sep 17, 2010 8:33 am ]
Post subject: 
Hmm, I can't find anything on that on the Station Cash sites...

And I certainly have never had any added to my balance.

Would be nice if it were the case.
Author:  Ladas [ Fri Sep 17, 2010 9:29 am ]
Post subject: 
I could be wrong Nephyrs... I do know what when I checked to see how much I had when that potion was introduced it was over 800, and I had never added any to the account. It should be empty now, since I used what I had to not fail that Shawl quest combine again. Thats been at least a month if not 2, so I'll check my account and see if it has accumulated anything.
Author:  NephyrS [ Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:10 am ]
Post subject: 
Please do- if so, I'll make a thread about it/petition it.

Thanks.
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