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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:39 am 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
But that's the point. Bioware doesn't even make a pretense of using *different* pieces. It just paints a new color on the same jigsaw puzzle and people call it brilliant and creative.


But it's not the same puzzle. It's more like rearranging lego blocks.

You're essentially complaining that a play has acts. Gee, each Shakespeare play must be identical, having 3-6 acts prior to the climax! Nevermind that the content of each act is unique, you're complaining that it's sectionally divided and therefore too formulaic? I don't get it.

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Also.. I'm tired of epics. Stop making me the **** chosen one who has to save the universe.


Epic storylines are generally my favorites.

As I said to Corolinth:
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Lord of the Rings has the protagonists having to escape Hobbiton, reach bree, where the real adventure starts, then methodically make their way through the wilderness to Rivendell, through the mines of Moria to the Lothlorien, then across the swamps, through Mordor, and finally to the Mountain of Doom to destroy the ring. Oh, we have a secondary plot woven through with a second set of protagonists that wouldn't work very well in an RPG, but they actually follow the same segmented set of locations too, from when they diverge from the fellowship: Rohan, Helm's Deep, Gondor, the gates of Mordor. You can break down every story like that.

DA2 is harder to break down. why? Because every act is in the same place, divided by time rather than location. And for that tiny deviation from any adventure formula, Bioware got lambasted because "the whole game takes place in the same spot! That sucks!"

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:57 am 
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Does not compute.

Things I don't understand people desiring in video games:

  • Detailed, time-consuming crafting system ("I love walking all over the sodding world to find one of twelve flowers that can be used to make a thing that doesn't really do much. Yay!")
  • Mundane, unimportant character ("Why should I always be special in this story...can't I be a_random_guard0006?")
  • Focus on the mundane/"realistic" aspects of fantasy ("My weapon degrades and I have to constantly spend time and money on upkeep, just like my car IRL. Isn't that cool?!")

YMMV.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:59 am 
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When the best you've got is that everything is derivative, you don't have great writing. You've just got writing. That doesn't make it bad, or terrible. What it means is that "best writers in the industry" is either undeserved praise, or a scathing indictment of everyone else.

The games were good. I enjoyed playing them. It was not the writing or the structure of the story that caused me to abandon Dragon Age. That does not make Bioware's writers paragons of their craft.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:02 pm 
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The only method of getting away from the so-called "formula" Khross, Corolinth, and Kaffis are complaining about, is to remove the storyline. The segmented storyline parts that to them seem so formulaic are a consequence of having a plot. You can remove them from an RPG quite easily. For example:

Play an "Elder Scrolls" game. Oblivion, for example. It's a sandbox. You can wander aimlessly forever and just ignore the plot if you like. It's not actually fun, but some people don't like fun.

I like my rails. give me choices at junctions and switches, but let me keep my rails. They're the only way to maintain a cinematic experience that make me feel like I'm part of a real story, rather than some schmuck wandering aimlessly across some pretty graphics.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:03 pm 
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Complete originality in storytelling is largely a falsehood. Originality as we know it comes from the re-assembly of familiar pieces in unfamiliar ways and, in my opinion, is not inherently a virtue.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:09 pm 
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Corolinth wrote:
When the best you've got is that everything is derivative, you don't have great writing. You've just got writing. That doesn't make it bad, or terrible. What it means is that "best writers in the industry" is either undeserved praise, or a scathing indictment of everyone else.


I'm not limiting my discussion to "the industry." The discussion over what is "derivative" can be traced back far further than that. Michael Crichton, Tolkien, Robert Louis Stevenson, Johann David Wyss, H. Rider Haggard, Arthur Conan Doyle, Rudyard Kipling, Jules Verne, Homer, hell, even the **** Bible...it's all derivitative, they all share the same tropes. This is not a criticism. It's simply the way it is. I'd put Bioware's writers above most modern television, movies, and books, too. Some of it is almost Whedon-worthy. If we limit it to their own genre, they have made, without question, the best interactive stories ever made.

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Last edited by Talya on Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:09 pm 
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FarSky wrote:
Complete originality in storytelling is largely a falsehood. Originality as we know it comes from the re-assembly of familiar pieces in unfamiliar ways and, in my opinion, is not inherently a virtue.

Yes, I already said that. ;)

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:13 pm 
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FarSky wrote:
("I love walking all over the sodding world to find one of twelve flowers that can be used to make a thing that doesn't really do much. Yay!")

YMMV.


Indeed it does.

Things like this can be used to encourage adventuring, as opposed to following the rails. Done poorly, it's just a time sink that artificially extends the length of the game. Done well, it's a (possibly optional) part of the story line that encourages your to interact with your surroundings, travel to areas you might not otherwise have gone, and contributes to immersion in the world/story/character.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:21 pm 
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Midgen wrote:
Things like this can be used to encourage adventuring, as opposed to following the rails. Done poorly, it's just a time sink that artificially extends the length of the game. Done well, it's a (possibly optional) part of the story line that encourages your to interact with your surroundings, travel to areas you might not otherwise have gone, and contributes to immersion in the world/story/character.


If this is true, I've never seen it done well.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:43 pm 
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The "Bioware Formula" Coro, Khross, and I are pointing out has nothing to do with being segmented into acts, and everything to do with consisting of a number of interchangeable steps that must be completed, but do not build on each other, before progressing to the next stage.

It's not that OMG! You have to do A, B, and C that makes the formula repetitive, or in any way analogous to any literary storytelling in existence because Tolkien's heroes also did X, Y, and Z.

The problem is that because A, B, and C (or, as Khross and Coro point out, since the standard Bioware follows has 4 parts, D, as well) are presented to be interchangeable in order to claim that the story is "non-linear" and "the player has choices!" and "this isn't a game on rails," A, B, C, and D have absolutely no inter-relation, and do not build dramatically upon one another in any meaningful way. There's no sense of building tension, because there's no certainty which will fall where in the arc of rising tension.

It's particularly faulty, IMO, when applied to epic stories. That lack of escalation and tension completely fails to convey any sense of urgency, which is antithetical to the notion of an epic story. And it's not the fault of the writing in any one of the sections; it's the fault of the structure itself.

As for epic stories; I don't mean to suggest that my weariness of playing epics means I want to play a farmer who never matters in the grand scheme. It's not that I want to play somebody utterly mundane. I agree, that's boring, in the sense that I get that in my own life.

But just because the protagonist is, or becomes, special at some point in the story, whether that is due to some intrinsic quality or, often preferably, just due to being in the right place at the right time, doesn't mean that the rest of the setting has to recognize that he's special and point it out to him. And it also doesn't mean that the character's motivation has to be some paragon sense of altruism to save the world.

I'll make a quick example, just because it's been on my mind lately and it's convenient. Deus Ex is not an epic story, and neither is Human Revolution shaping up to be one. Both of the characters are "special," in that they're among a relatively small population of augmented individuals in a sea of normal humanity. But they don't set out to save the world; they're minding their own business, doing their job, when they become involved, as part of their job or simply for very mundane, personal interests (revenge, curiousity), in these conspiracies among people of power.

Are there global stakes eventually in play? Well, sure. But they get revealed slowly, and the character remains unaware of the true stakes until relatively late in the game, as it were.

In Deus Ex, JC Denton is, granted, one of the pilot cases for a new augmentation nano-technology. In this sense, he's special. But he has no mystical destiny. There's no sense that he's the only person in the world who could uncover these conspiracies.

Likewise, I'm finding, with Human Revolution. Adam Jensen isn't the first augment. He doesn't have powerful abilities that nobody else has. He's not the bloodline of long-lost royalty, he's not infused with demonic power. He's not even famed the galaxy over for his prowess (in fact, he was fired from the SWAT team in the aftermath of a royal ****, and it's suggested that the only way he landed a new gig was due to some personal connections). But he's got a job to do, and that job is investigating some terrorist/espionage attempts against his workplace, because the cops seem to be disinterested in following certain leads.

That's it. Nobody comes to him with the message that he's the salvation of the human race. Nobody tells him that he's destined to be a beacon of light in the face of darkness. Nobody tells him that he has the power to shake the foundations of power that governments and corporations are built upon. He's a chief of security, doing his job, and maybe motivated a little bit to go the extra mile to avenge his dead ex.

He's far from mundane, but he's eminently relatable, and the sense that a protagonist is getting in over his head is seriously refreshing.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:53 pm 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
The problem is that because A, B, and C (or, as Khross and Coro point out, since the standard Bioware follows has 4 parts, D, as well) are presented to be interchangeable in order to claim that the story is "non-linear" and "the player has choices!" and "this isn't a game on rails," A, B, C, and D have absolutely no inter-relation, and do not build dramatically upon one another in any meaningful way. There's no sense of building tension, because there's no certainty which will fall where in the arc of rising tension.

It's particularly faulty, IMO, when applied to epic stories. That lack of escalation and tension completely fails to convey any sense of urgency, which is antithetical to the notion of an epic story. And it's not the fault of the writing in any one of the sections; it's the fault of the structure itself.


The only way around this is to make the elements completely linear. I don't really have a problem with this, per se. But then I don't see the issue with it as stated, either. I should note that DA2 avoided this formula completely (and as a consequence has the escalating tension you describe), and Bioware was soundly criticized for it. (Personally, I thought it was a great game.) By making each act come linearly rather than choosing the order, people felt too constrained, like they're not having any effect on what happens next. Expect DA3 to go back to that formula, because it is obvious that people prefer it.

I think the obvious fact, however, is storyline-potential is improved by rails and linear progressions. The more the player is allowed to choose their path, the more branching is allowed, the less whole the story will feel. The sweet spot that will please the most people by providing some choice, while maintaining a contiguous plot as effectively as possible seems to be where Bioware has already been publishing games, before DA2.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 1:19 pm 
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Branching doesn't have to be a detriment to story. But it requires lots more work, because branching only one "tier" in the plot doesn't work well. If you branch, you have to go whole-hog and go the Wing Commander route.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 1:41 pm 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Branching doesn't have to be a detriment to story. But it requires lots more work, because branching only one "tier" in the plot doesn't work well. If you branch, you have to go whole-hog and go the Wing Commander route.


At which point you better be prepared to pay practically double for the game. Or have it be half as long...since it costs nearly twice as much to make...assuming only one branch early in the story.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 2:50 pm 
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Corolinth wrote:
ME1 didn't deviate from that formula at all, let alone wildly. What do you think you were doing on Feros, Virmire, Therum, and Noveria? Likewise in DAO, what do you think the four treaties were? They followed the exact same story as NWN.


No, they followed a similar structure, but the stories they told, and the characters involved were vastly different. The characters and their backstories, along with the settings and the history of the worlds these adventures take place in, are what sets Bioware apart from the rest of the industry. Just look at the DA wiki and look up the Chantry, or the history of Ferelden. Or read the codex entries for the mass effect drives, or the different species of the galaxy. These writers have spent a ton of time and energy fleshing out worlds that are extremely interesting and engaging. And their games are much better for it.

Also, look at the banter between your companions, or the dialog that reveals pieces of their backstory. These aren't just flat, uninteresting characters. They are fleshed out companions with real issues and motivations, and people that you actually want to help (or kill, as the case may be, but the point is, you're having a strong emotional response based on the character's personality and/or actions).

Besides, ME2 and DA2 veered wildly away from this particular structure that you have an issue with, and I felt that these were the two strongest stories they have done so far. Some of the mechanics of gameplay may not have been as strong as the first ones, but the storytelling was vastly improved. The stories were much more cinematic, engaging, and emotional, and went a long way to making me feel like an integral part of these worlds they have created. I don't know about you guys, but I'd call that good writing. It's exactly why I play a game, or read a book, or watch a show. Not only to be entertained, but to be so drawn into the story that I feel like I'm a part of it. And so far, Bioware has not disappointed me in the least.

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 Post subject: Re: Dragon Age III
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 3:05 pm 
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Plotto

Don't worry, I own a copy already; the link is for those of you have absolutely no idea this book exists because it's obscure, out of print, and almost universally avoided because of what it is.

Normally, I would spend pages explaining the difference between a plot and a story, but here's a famous, two sentence example:

Plot wrote:
The King died, and then the Queen died.

Story wrote:
The King died, and then the Queen died of grief.


Does the difference between these two things seem readily apparent to you?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:39 pm 
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Read this.
Read every word of it.
Then spend the next several hours pointlessly clicking links to more entertaining tropes.


From another link at that site:

Quote:
• Tropes Are Tools, not clichés. They are plot devices and progressions (similar to but more defined than literary devices) that have been around for a long time because they work, and there's no inherent loss of complexity through the use of them (most of the time).
• Note the inherent creativity of many shows. Hell, you'd be unable to find a show that doesn't use tropes, especially given that the avoidance of some tropes are tropes in and of themselves. You're failing to appreciate the material if you immediately assume the show is unoriginal if there is a trope involved.

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Last edited by Talya on Thu Aug 25, 2011 5:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:58 pm 
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in fact, he was fired from the SWAT team in the aftermath of a royal ****, and it's suggested that the only way he landed a new gig was due to some personal connections


That's... not what my game is saying. My game is also saying "Jensen is extremely ****ing special", so far.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 7:04 pm 
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Nobody's arguing against the use of tropes, Taly, or that they're not tools. The problem is, Bioware's been using the same blueprints with those tropes for roughly a decade.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 7:08 pm 
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Dalantia wrote:
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in fact, he was fired from the SWAT team in the aftermath of a royal ****, and it's suggested that the only way he landed a new gig was due to some personal connections


That's... not what my game is saying. My game is also saying "Jensen is extremely ****ing special", so far.

Okay, I'll freely admit I'm still dicking around in Detroit pre-Police Station. Work's been crazy, and I've had other obligations.

However,
Spoiler:
Just because I'm reading "Jensen either IS unwittingly Patient Zero, or has the same genetic mutation" doesn't make his actions in the story any different. Even if he weren't, he'd be Chief of Security (or, maybe not, because of Mexicantown), and he'd have gotten the **** blown out of him and augmented to save his life. The only difference would be that you'd be getting company-paid dosages of Neuropozyne if you weren't "special."

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 Post subject: Re: Dragon Age III
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 7:14 pm 
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I'm not talking about tropes. I'm not talking about schemes. I'm not talking about any of the some 10,000 literary devices I've studied. Language is fundamentally metaphor, and communication happens almost entirely by using some structure to approximate the transmission of understanding.

I'm talking about Bioware's failure to grow in any narrative or ontological sense when it comes to their games. They came up with one really good idea (10 years ago), and they have been milking it ever sense.

However, my expectations include actual evolution of the developing studio and their product. Bioware hasn't delivered in that regard ...

They've had opportunity, but they have not delivered.

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 Post subject: Re: Dragon Age III
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 7:18 pm 
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Spoiler:
Jensen resigned instead of shooting the kid. He is Patient Zero, and may have been cloned or engineered. Info for two can come after first boss.

Spoilers for mid-late Detroit.


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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
The problem is, Bioware's been using the same blueprints with those tropes for roughly a decade.


...and yet their games are still heralded as amazing works above so many others. It's not always just about the writing. I think what I always appreciate about Bioware is the attention to detail. In Mass Effect, everything has some kind of backstory. You don't see that very often. It's these details that keep the games fresh (and good) in our minds. I also think the fact that Mass Effect is tied together through your own character has a profound effect on how fun and important I perceive the game to be.

When I played DA2 and it didn't have that level of detail (again, itemization is where I first saw it, but not the only thing), I was pretty disappointed. So much, in fact, that I stopped playing it at all.


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 Post subject: Re: Dragon Age III
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 9:34 am 
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Khross wrote:
Language is fundamentally metaphor, and communication happens almost entirely by using some structure to approximate the transmission of understanding.

Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 9:38 am 
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Lenas wrote:
Kaffis Mark V wrote:
The problem is, Bioware's been using the same blueprints with those tropes for roughly a decade.


...and yet their games are still heralded as amazing works above so many others. It's not always just about the writing. I think what I always appreciate about Bioware is the attention to detail. In Mass Effect, everything has some kind of backstory. You don't see that very often. It's these details that keep the games fresh (and good) in our minds.

Which, again, is not a commendation for Bioware as much as a condemnation of the rest of the industry.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 12:38 pm 
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shuyung wrote:
Lenas wrote:
Kaffis Mark V wrote:
The problem is, Bioware's been using the same blueprints with those tropes for roughly a decade.


...and yet their games are still heralded as amazing works above so many others. It's not always just about the writing. I think what I always appreciate about Bioware is the attention to detail. In Mass Effect, everything has some kind of backstory. You don't see that very often. It's these details that keep the games fresh (and good) in our minds.

Which, again, is not a commendation for Bioware as much as a condemnation of the rest of the industry.

Thank you.

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