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WotC's attempt to move product
https://gladerebooted.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11292		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  shuyung [ Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:31 pm ]
Post subject:  WotC's attempt to move product
So apparently, WotC released a video the other day to push the 5e DMG.


This has drawn some ire, in some circles. Yes, it's a caricature, but get over it. The part that should really be objectionable is that there's even a perceived need for a DMG for the new system specifically.
Author:  Diamondeye [ Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WotC's attempt to move product
I'm not sure I really see why the video would cause ire, or for that matter, what's wrong with WotC trying to get people to buy their stuff.
Author:  shuyung [ Thu Feb 12, 2015 7:16 pm ]
Post subject: 
Mostly because people look for things to get offended by.

And there's nothing wrong with WotC trying to get people to buy their stuff. I just happen to be of the opinion that the DMG (as produced by WotC) doesn't serve the purpose that it should.
Author:  Corolinth [ Thu Feb 12, 2015 7:38 pm ]
Post subject: 
Is this a long running issue with the DMG, or a grievance specific to 5e?
Author:  shuyung [ Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:20 pm ]
Post subject: 
It's not specific to 5e, by any stretch. I'm not sure how long running it is, though. D&D is almost unique among the systems that I have played in that it features a separate, mechanical rulebook for DMs. This is, for the most part, unnecessary. This is not to say that there aren't certain things that a DM should know that don't deserve their own book, it's just that those things are non-mechanical, universal (system agnostic), and fairly static. It's just that's not what WotC (to the best of my knowledge) prints.
Author:  Raell [ Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:29 pm ]
Post subject: 
There is always crap in the DMG that the players don't need.
Author:  Müs [ Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:37 pm ]
Post subject: 
I know in my heart its time to level up.

Mmm, yeah, that felt nice. Let's do it again.

I'll be level 20 in no time.
Author:  shuyung [ Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:
Raell wrote:
There is always crap in the DMG that the players don't need.

Sure, I'm not saying there aren't. But those things are discussions of the differences between an intrigue-based campaign versus an action-based campaign. Or a comparison/contrast of a fantasy-based world vs. a futuristic one. That doesn't change because of the system. There's absolutely no reason, other than a desire to sell a third book, to place anything mechanical in a dungeon master's guide, nor in fact to need to print a dungeon master's guide with every version of system they release. You need one book to explain how to use the system, it's a good thing to have another book to provide stuff to use in the system (I am happy to concede that some people don't have the time or the inclination to make up all their own stuff), but a book every system purportedly to explain how to run that system is just an excuse to try to soak a bit more money from your userbase, and there's certainly more agreeable ways to do that.
Author:  Diamondeye [ Fri Feb 13, 2015 4:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WotC's attempt to move product
While that's true, it also seems to me like with 1-book systems, that book is a lot thicker. The stuff in the DMG doesn't have to be in a separate book, but much of it does have to be somewhere. 2 books might be more expensive than 1 book, but I don't really have a problem with that and at least that way 2 people can look things up at the same time.

I've never bought the "players don't need access to it" argument though; in most groups DM responsibilities rotate and as a practical matter even new players get curious what's in that book pretty quick.

I do think, though, that the quality of the DMGs has dropped from edition to edition, though, although I haven't read the 4E DMG (and for that matter only skimmed the PHB). The 1E DMG is a classic book with all kinds of great stuff that's never been repeated like the dungeon generating system in the back. I haven't purchased the 5E version yet but I really don't have high hopes for it.

I don't agree that there's any such thing as "trying to soak money from your userbase" in any sort of gaming, whether it's RPGs, computer games, tabletops like WH40K or whatever. That doesn't even rise to the level of "1st world problem" in my view.
Author:  shuyung [ Fri Feb 13, 2015 5:39 pm ]
Post subject: 
1-book systems aren't. There have been a number of attempts to produce a 1-book system, and some of them do manage to provide a fully fleshed system, but at the expense of other parts, which they then have to release supplements for later. So they don't quite make it.

But for any game system, there is certainly a need for a rulebook. This gives everybody involved all the necessary mechanical elements to play the game. There is certainly a need for a "stuff" book. Monsters, mechanisms, and moolah. Lairs and loot. However you want to look at it. A guide to running a game, though, is not a necessity per system. If the DMG was simply that, a guide on how to be a (good) dungeon master, it might be on its third printing now, maybe fourth. You'd have started with the 1st edition, and then a number of years later, after the hobby has grown and more people have become involved, it gets reprinted with some modifications due to "things we have learned" as the hobby has grown. And then maybe a number of years later it gets a few more updates rolling in "things we have learned" about science fiction-y or space opera-y or **** pretentious goth crap games and the care and feeding those sorts of games need.

Obviously, any business wants to make money. From that standpoint, no, the release of a product, no matter how dubious its utility, cannot qualify as trying to soak money from your userbase. It's just "doing business". Somebody, somewhere, probably wants it. But some products--sometimes immediately, sometimes in hindsight--are visibly not worth the price. And sometimes those products are pitched deceptively to garner a higher sales rate than their real value warrants.
Author:  Diamondeye [ Fri Feb 13, 2015 8:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WotC's attempt to move product
Yeah, but on the other hand you're pitching to a crowd that ostensibly ought to be fairly bright and ought to be able to discern whether they really need it or not.

In regards to D&D, I'd sort of say that a DMG is just a D&D "thing". they had one back in 1975 when it seemed like "oh yeah there should be a book for the DM and one for the player." After that it was just expected.
Author:  Corolinth [ Fri Feb 13, 2015 10:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WotC's attempt to move product
First edition L5R has a GM's Survival Guide, which essentially outlines the culture of Rokugan and how the players ostensibly fit into it. There are a variety of other useful tidbits in there, but the main thrust seems to be, "How far do you want to go with representing feudal Japan?" The book has never been reprinted in future editions of the product line for a variety of reasons, mostly based around not having John Wick to write it.

A functional DMG is extremely hard to write. I say "functional" to differentiate from, "We're gonna have a GMs Only book, because that's what D&D does." You have to mix generally useful advice for running any game with support for how to create content and make rules judgments specific to your product. Most writers can't really do that.
Author:  Diamondeye [ Sat Feb 14, 2015 10:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: WotC's attempt to move product
Corolinth wrote:
A functional DMG is extremely hard to write. I say "functional" to differentiate from, "We're gonna have a GMs Only book, because that's what D&D does." You have to mix generally useful advice for running any game with support for how to create content and make rules judgments specific to your product. Most writers can't really do that.


Well, you can start with the array of useful tables and charts the 1E DMG had, like the dungeon generator. Even if you don't use the random rolling part, it often gives you good ideas just looking at it.
Author:  Talya [ Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:28 am ]
Post subject: 
Any type of system with mechanics - with rules - gives a big advantage to players that are fully versed in those rules and who know how to make those rules work in their favor. The DMG as written by WotC is a half-assed attempt to suggest that players should operate in mystery - a prisoner to mechanics they do not understand. (1) that doesn't even work, and (2) as DE suggests, the job of DM often gets rotated, or people play in multiple games, etc.

The only types of mechanics I could see putting in DMG are "optional" mechanics. The idea is, it's not so much whether the players know about them, it's clearly labelling them as "whether you even use these is not up to the players, but up to the DM." These are things you don't want the players assuming are available from the start.

I'm not sure that's enough mechanical content in most systems to make a DMG worthwhile.
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