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Paid Mods: The end of PC gaming, or just DLC: Level 2?
https://gladerebooted.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11346		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Darkroland [ Fri Apr 24, 2015 3:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Paid Mods: The end of PC gaming, or just DLC: Level 2?
So for anyone who has been under a rock for 2 days, now steam allows for PAID mods. Skyrim is the first game to suffer the consequences, both with Bethseda's blessing (they get a cut of the profits) and 75% of the revenue splitting between steam/publisher.

So, what's the verdict? Personally, I think it's ridiculous, and while I like steam as a game delivery system, their "revenue generating" content has always made me raise an eyebrow. At this point, the eyebrows are no longer on my head.

I hope this is an experiment that fails miserably and DLC goes back to what it should be, people who love the game (but are not game developers) developing content for games they love. It should be ridiculously expansive content that makes no sense sometimes but is great and free for all. All the elder scrolls games since morrowind have benefited massively from DLC, likely selling many more copies than they would have with the free content available. I'm amazed that both steam and Bethesda would jeopardize the mod ecosystem like this, and personally, I hope it burns out fast.

...However, I also never thought people would pay for cosmetic dlc for single player games and download pay to win content, defeating the entire purpose of playing the game. So what do I know?
Author:  Darkroland [ Fri Apr 24, 2015 3:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Paid Mods: The end of PC gaming, or just DLC: Level 2?
People are already having some fun with this:

Extra Apple Mod: 29.99
Image

Have you ever walked into the Bannered Mare and thought to yourself: “Man, this place could use an extra apple.”? Well, worry no longer! “Extra Apple” adds another apple to the counter in the Bannered Mare.

This mod took many years to fully develope. Skyrim released in 2011, and only now do I feel that the mod is ready for a public release.

Extra Apple is still in beta, but I have decided to open it up to the public for further testing and developement. By purchasing Extra Apple, you are making an investment in one of the most exciting mods in Skyrim history. The price will continue to rise as more features are added. The future features I am planning include:

-Custom modeling, animation, and voice acting for the extra apple

-Adding more than one apple to the counter, possibly two or even (if this mod’s revenue can support me full time for several months) three extra apples

-Massive overhaul to every single gameplay system that there is no way I can feasibly develop

-Yet another shoddy attempt to fix the Civil War questline

-A custom follower who is just a clone of another NPC. This follower will behave exactly like all the followers in the base game, and have no custom dialogue. They will however have a different name, and perhaps a poorly constructed backstory

-A New Lands section of the game featuring a fully voiced 50 hour questline based on my awesome story idea I had in class last Tuesday
Author:  Lenas [ Fri Apr 24, 2015 3:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Paid Mods: The end of PC gaming, or just DLC: Level 2?
I don't see why giving people another option for publishing their works is making anyone mad. If they don't want to put out mods on Steam, they can still use third party sites and offer them for free, or whatever. Yes there are going to be growing pains like people stealing work or charging $29 for apples. In the long run I think this just gives modders a huge visibility boost because there are a lot of cats that never venture outside of Steam.
Author:  Darkroland [ Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Paid Mods: The end of PC gaming, or just DLC: Level 2?
Oh, it's not another option. Steam workshop has been up and running since 2011, with all the mods and support. The only change is that now mod devs (and apparently lots of people who don't develop mods, but are good at uploading them and saying they made them) can now charge money for them.
Author:  Lenas [ Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Paid Mods: The end of PC gaming, or just DLC: Level 2?
So people have a problem with content creators being able to monetize their work?
Author:  Rorinthas [ Fri Apr 24, 2015 5:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Paid Mods: The end of PC gaming, or just DLC: Level 2?
apparently. Damn Capitalists, how dare they demand money for the fruit for their labors.
Author:  Darkroland [ Fri Apr 24, 2015 8:09 pm ]
Post subject: 
I think the larger issue here is support. Will there be a contract with the mod developer? If a game is patched, and mod functionality breaks, will they be required to update? If they end development on a mod, will another team be allowed to step in to continue it, and if so, how does monetization work? Already there is a glut of "early access" mods that say they're using funds to further development, is there any guarantee it will be completed? Granted, Kickstarter has proven that isn't a given, but all these scenarios are very common in the (previously) non-commercial mod world. Mods are abandoned constantly.
Author:  Diamondeye [ Fri Apr 24, 2015 8:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Paid Mods: The end of PC gaming, or just DLC: Level 2?
Lenas wrote:
So people have a problem with content creators being able to monetize their work?


Yes. Almost none of it is worth a dime. Where's the quality control going to be? I've downloaded plenty of mods that LOOKED way better than they turned out to be.
Author:  Darkroland [ Fri Apr 24, 2015 8:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Paid Mods: The end of PC gaming, or just DLC: Level 2?
Here's Forbes drawing out some more reasons why this looks like a really bad move.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2015/04/24/valves-paid-skyrim-mods-are-a-legal-ethical-and-creative-disaster
Author:  Crimsonsun [ Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Paid Mods: The end of PC gaming, or just DLC: Level 2?
Author:  FarSky [ Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:51 pm ]
Post subject: 
Someone should build Half-Life 3 as a premium mod for Half-Life 2, maybe?
Author:  Rorinthas [ Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Paid Mods: The end of PC gaming, or just DLC: Level 2?
Diamondeye wrote:
Lenas wrote:
So people have a problem with content creators being able to monetize their work?


Yes. Almost none of it is worth a dime. Where's the quality control going to be? I've downloaded plenty of mods that LOOKED way better than they turned out to be.


You could say the same thing about things sold on television between the hours of 3 and 6am. Or on Google Play for that matter.
Author:  Lenas [ Sat Apr 25, 2015 2:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Paid Mods: The end of PC gaming, or just DLC: Level 2?
Diamondeye wrote:
Lenas wrote:
So people have a problem with content creators being able to monetize their work?


Yes. Almost none of it is worth a dime. Where's the quality control going to be? I've downloaded plenty of mods that LOOKED way better than they turned out to be.


THE MARKET WILL DECIDE
Author:  Diamondeye [ Sat Apr 25, 2015 9:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Paid Mods: The end of PC gaming, or just DLC: Level 2?
Lenas wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
Lenas wrote:
So people have a problem with content creators being able to monetize their work?


Yes. Almost none of it is worth a dime. Where's the quality control going to be? I've downloaded plenty of mods that LOOKED way better than they turned out to be.


THE MARKET WILL DECIDE


Obviously. Thankfully, the government has not (yet) stuck their nose into this shitshow.

Quote:
You could say the same thing about things sold on television between the hours of 3 and 6am. Or on Google Play for that matter.


Let's stay out of Australia's problems, shall we?
Author:  Kaffis Mark V [ Sat Apr 25, 2015 9:40 am ]
Post subject: 
The split raises an eyebrow, to me, but nothing else is particularly worrisome in theory. I imagine this may prove to be a headache for Valve as they have to figure out how to arbitrate disputes. We'll see where this experiment goes.
Author:  FarSky [ Sat Apr 25, 2015 1:21 pm ]
Post subject: 
I admit I haven't looked into this too closely, but is there really no copyright infringement on using someone else's intellectual property to make something from which you profit? I mean, I've always viewed mods as computer-game versions of fan fiction: illegitimate, mostly terrible but occasionally excellent, but not for profit and thus kinda gray area.
Author:  shuyung [ Sat Apr 25, 2015 1:48 pm ]
Post subject: 
That depends on the agreement.

In this case, Bethesda has made tools available to support a modding community. Further, Bethesda has entered into an agreement with Valve to allow non-free mods. So the permission has been granted to produce derivative content for profit. The split is Valve takes 75% and the mod publisher (may not be the author) receives 25%. I would assume that the 75% is then further subdivided between Valve and Bethesda.

There are a number of easily identifiable problems with this scheme, but copyright, at least, is not a factor. At least, copyright infringement between the mod community and Bethesda. Charging for a mod that utilizes somebody else's copyright will be painful.
Author:  Midgen [ Sun Apr 26, 2015 10:53 am ]
Post subject: 
http://www.newsledge.com/skyrim-paid-mod-removed-15088

newsledge.com wrote:
THAT DIDN’T TAKE LONG. FIRST SKYRIM PAID MOD REMOVED FOR INCLUDING OTHER MODDER’S WORK

Valve and Bethesda’s experiment with paid mods couldn’t make it a day without controversy.

Destructoid spotted the controversy as it happened. You can see screenshots of the now deleted comments on their site.

Here’s what went down.

One of the mods available to purchase yesterday was a fishing mod from modders Chesko and aqqh. Valve even promoted it on the new Steam Workshop page (it has since been replaced).

There was just one problem. The fishing mod contained assets from another mod – Fore’s New Idles in Skyrim. And, it was used without his permission.

It all started when one steam user, Devon, asked Chesko, “I wonder whether you have any permission from Fores New Idles in Skyrim to use his assets in your mod that you charge money for?”

Fore jumped in and said, “No, he has not.”

Fore also gave his opinion about yesterday’s announcement for paid mods.

“And making money with mods is totally against my attitude. It’s the end of a working and inventive modding community,” Fore wrote.

Chesko offered this explanation.

“I would like to make it clear that I have been under a non-disclosure agreement for over a month, and was unable (not unwilling) to contact others,” Chesko wrote.

Chesko continued, “I asked Valve specifically about content that requires other content, and was told that if the download is separate and free, it was fair game. In the case of this mod, the animations are not required and the mod continues to work. However I will defer to Fore’s decision, which will issue a refund to all subscribers.”

This is the exact situation most people were concerned about with yesterday’s announcement.

It’s funny Valve/Bethesda didn’t even vet the initial batch of paid mods. I know Valve/Bethesda won’t be able to check all the mods now, but at least double check your first batch.

I wrote yesterday that Valve’s biggest issue will be policing against people using others work without permission. I just didn’t think it would happen this fast.

Valve does have ways for modders to address concerns of others using their work. Valve’s FAQ says concerned modders can issue a DMCA takedown notice.

Valve also lets items with multiple modders split revenue. But, all the modders have to give permission for their content to be used.

The first day was a bumpy one for Skyrim paid mods. What do you think it will look like after a few months?
Author:  Rorinthas [ Sun Apr 26, 2015 4:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Paid Mods: The end of PC gaming, or just DLC: Level 2?
Good shows that the system works when people try to exploit it.
Author:  FarSky [ Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:19 pm ]
Post subject: 
And Valve's cancelled the program. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust.

http://steamcommunity.com/games/SteamWo ... 5253244218
Author:  Darkroland [ Mon Apr 27, 2015 7:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Paid Mods: The end of PC gaming, or just DLC: Level 2?
So awesome. I was actually really upset about this, so I'm extremely happy they've rolled it back to re-evaluate.
Author:  Kaffis Mark V [ Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:56 am ]
Post subject: 
It's also probably a good assessment that Skyrim's established field of mods is probably not a representative example case.

Launch a game with this feature, and you won't have the rampant theft and whatnot of already-free mods.
Author:  Midgen [ Tue Apr 28, 2015 10:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re:
FarSky wrote:
And Valve's cancelled the program. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust.

http://steamcommunity.com/games/SteamWo ... 5253244218


This is a fantastic quote from that article

emphasis mine
Quote:
We're going to remove the payment feature from the Skyrim workshop. For anyone who spent money on a mod, we'll be refunding you the complete amount. We talked to the team at Bethesda and they agree.

We've done this because it's clear we didn't understand exactly what we were doing.
Author:  Numbuk [ Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Paid Mods: The end of PC gaming, or just DLC: Level 2?
Gabe Newell hopped onto Reddit for an "Ask Me Anything" once he opened his inbox after he got back from vacation and saw the shitstorm. I didn't read the whole thing while it was in progress, but it sounded like he ragequit after being backed into a corner by some hard and legitimate questions.

The next day I saw that Valve pulled it.

While people may complain that they did this at all in the first place, I think the fact they listened to feedback and reversed their decision should be highly commended. You can't name many businesses willing to do that these days.
Author:  Lenas [ Tue Apr 28, 2015 1:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Paid Mods: The end of PC gaming, or just DLC: Level 2?
Valve should just treat mods like Daybreak treats voxels. Put a creator ID on everything, and if that thing gets used in another mod, the original creator gets a cut. They were just lazy with this implementation.
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