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 Post subject: [MMO] Final Fantasy XIV
PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:12 pm 
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Anyone else get in the open beta last night?

I played about an hour... Set up my controller immediately and jumped in.

After all the negative reports, I'm cautiously optimistic after my first play. The game is gorgeous and it's fun so far. I'm Lenas on the Wutai server.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 4:46 pm 
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Can't say I'll ever touch this one. Not after I heard about that totally asinine experience system they're putting in.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 5:42 pm 
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Posts regarding the fatigue system. Makes some good points, the main one being that character progression is all about perception and not every game is going to have the same view. I've emphasized some parts.

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My name is Chris, and I like the Surplus System. There, I said it. And to be honest, I am quickly growing tired of reading people's thoughtless responses (rampages) against it. Really, it is the best new idea in MMO's. (Correct me if another game has already done this)

So let's break it down. An MMO developer has to have a mechanic to control the speed of player's progression. The goal here is to keep the majority of players from reaching end game content before xx time after release.

Obviously MMO's want to keep their player's entertained in order to keep subscriptions. And developer's are (should be) more worried about general game mechanics and stability for the first few months after launch. This equates to little to no end game content at the launch of an MMO. Sometimes solid end game content can even take 6-9 months to hit servers. So developers use silly systems to pace everyone according to their own schedule.

Usually this is done with experience points. Aion is an amazing example of this. After reaching level ~30 the increase in required exp increased so fast that the game could be called nothing but a 'grind-fest'. I don't often meet people that enjoy grinding 6+ hours on the same monster, solo, just to get one level. Unfortunately most MMO's tend to take this route.

In WoW (launch version) the exp curve was moderate and forgiving. the numerous quests kept the player content by generating consistent small accomplishments while acting as a great time sink by requiring players to constantly travel (a lot).

Both achieved the same desired effect; at least 3 months before a major amount of players reached max level.

The Surplus system does is exactly the same. But it is so blunt it practically slaps you in the face.

Okay quick review of the Surplus System (In simplified terms, and going off the correct official SE translation of Nobuaki Komoto�s explanation);

SE has their special 'formula' to determine roughly how much exp a player can gain in an hour of play at the player's current level. After the player attains 8 "hours" of exp the player becomes 'fatigued'.

When fatigued the player�s earned exp is split into normal exp and surplus. Surplus exp is not given towards your level, but is still stored (and currently has no use). The amount of exp that becomes surplus increases over the next 7 "hours" of gained exp until you receive nothing but surplus. This resets one week from the first time the player gains exp on that job. And the player will slowly gain "hours" back while not playing said job.

And to clarify, there is no actual timer involved with the 8 "hours" or 7 "hours". Only the week reset time is a real timer.

Of course this system only works because in FFXIV players can switch jobs as often as they please on a single character.


From what I have read, the most common immediate response to this is somewhere along the lines of "you cant tell me how much time to play". Or "You cant do this ! I pay to play, I should be able to play as much as I want!!!!". It really seems to have brought out the rebellious teenager attitude. But leave it to teenage thinking to never look more than 5 feet in front of themselves.

Let's try looking at the big picture. No matter what, exp restriction or not, it is going to take a player a general amount of calendar time (not hours spent logged) to reach max level. So, let's say that SE's desired goal for a large amount of player's to reach max is 4 months. They could achieve this by finding the average amount of game time played each week, then create a level/exp curve that brings players to max at about 4 months of play. Most MMO's seem to do this. But then you get "hardcore" players that far surpass the majority of players in game play hours, and will look for unintended means of gaining levels faster. The common solution to counterbalance this, is simple: increase required exp. This has numerous negative effects to players (hardcore or not), as almost no one likes extended grinding.

It basically just increases the required amount in game time to reach max, while only slowly increasing calendar time. It is a great way to slow down hardcores, but an even better way to discourage average~casual players.

Number time!

There are 168 hours in a week, ~720 hours in a month, and ~2880 hours in our 4 month goal.

Say an average player spends 20 hours per week playing, a casual spends 10 hours, and a hardcore 50 hours.

So the level curve needs to require the player to spend between 160(10*4*4)-800(50*4*4) hours to reach max.

This leaves developers with a difficult choice. What player group do we adjust the level curve to?

If the curve is set for an average player (320 hours) then the hardcore crowd will attain max in just over 6 weeks. And this even has the potential for super hardcores (I don�t know how, but some can manage 20+ hours a day) to reach max in as little as 2 weeks.

If the curve is set closer to the hardcores (800 hours) then the average player will hit max about 40 weeks in. And if the casuals manage to make it, they will get max around 20 MONTHS in. And again, the super hardcore could still reach max as quickly as 5 weeks in.

None of this looks appealing, to developers or players.

Under the surplus system players would have to spend 240 hours over the 4 month period to reach max. Most MMO's could never think of letting players reach max in this amount of time.

So by limiting the amount of time players can spend on a weekly basis, SE has completely solved the above problem. They can keep everyone from progressing faster than they create new content, without having to discourage average to casual players. All while encouraging players to play multiple jobs and create their own jobs by combining the skills they have learned. It fits so well with the other core game mechanics. Even the crafting encourages (requires) players to skill up multiple crafts by having realistic material requirements (Sword needs leather hilt made by leather workers etc.).

Now I have read a lot of responses that consider this "punishment" for playing too much. But anyone that chooses to play past their 15 "hours" of exp on one job can simply switch to another job and continue playing. So if the hardcore were to maintain their 50 hours per week, when they reach max, 4 months in, they could have 3 jobs at max. Then take into consideration XIV's skill system, where most skills, once learned, can be used on any job. So having multiple jobs at max will enhance your 'main' job. This gives the hardcore incentive to play hardcore. Sure it is not the same race to max that a lot of hardcore players seem to participate in. And if they desire the race so much, they can attempt to find the most effective ways to use their slowly regenerated exp each week and possibly reach max a week before everyone else. Or just have the most jobs at max first week that max is attainable. A whole new race if you will.

Another complaint that seems common is the problem of catching up. If my friend starts the game a week after me, there is no way he can spend more time in order to catch up with me. So that leaves us with two options; either I wait a week for him, or I play another job that is closer to his level. I can see where some players would have problems with this, and can agree, this is a sticky spot. But again, because of the skill and armor system, I can start another job with my friend, and still use all my favourite skills and armor from my main.(Yes there is no level requirement for armor, it's stats sync with your level).

Closely related is the problem of missing a week. I go on vacation and can't play for 9 days. There is no way for me to play catch up with my friends. This needs to be fixed. And can be easily done too, by giving players roll over surplus "hours". This would allow players to spend extra time playing catch-up if they fell behind. (I hope you are listening SE)

All in all, I would much rather be able to hit max level roughly the same time that end game content is released by playing 15 hours per week. As opposed to playing 2-4x more hours, gaining exp from the same monsters and quests. Extending the exp curve does not add more content to the game, it only requires players to repeat the same content more often.

Don't get me wrong though. The Surplus system is not perfect. It needs work and adjustments. Just like most every part of the game. Which is to be expected from a newborn MMO.


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When designing an MMO, one of the things that needs to go in is some sort of limit on the possible progression of players. Developers need to control the rate at which players can approach the endgame, and other milestones along the way. Usually this is done with an XP curve.

An XP curve is really nothing more than a time sink. Developers decide how long they want certain segments of the game to take--how long they want certain level ranges to last, and ultimately how long it should take players to reach endgame. They then balance the amount of XP it is possible to gain in a given timeframe with the amount required to move beyond a certain a certain point, or level up.

XP gain may give the illusion of progression but that's all it is--an illusion. Gaining XP is not progressing a character. It does not impart any new strengths or abilities by itself. Levels are the real progression. Levels provide increased statistics and new abilities.

In reality, a game is designed and played from level to level, not from one experience point to the next. Being level 57 with 8000 XP towards level 58 doesn't let you do level 58 content any more than being level 57 woth 0 XP towards level 58 does. Being level 58 lets you do level 58 content. The XP required to get from level 57 to level 58 is merely a time sink. You spend enough time grinding it out, and you get to be level 58.

Experience point income is balanced against the total XP required for a level up in such a way as to have players spending a certain amount of time between level ups. This is true in any MMO, and Final Fantasy XIV is no different.

However, FFXIV puts a spin on the system. The developers for FFXIV are looking at it from the perspective that levels are the progression, not XP. XP is certainly not useless, but it is merely a means to an end. They also, like all developers, have in mind a rate at which they want players to reach certain level milestones.

For most MMOs, with a purely XP-based system, if the developers decide that levels should be gained at the rate of 1 per week, players have to grind away all week, making no real character progress, until they get that 1 level at the end of the week. THAT is the progress--regardless of whatever number is in the XP box, it is the 1 level that ultimately matters. And if you can't grind away all week, you don't get it. If it takes you three times as long to rack up the necessary game time, you get no progress on your character at all for three weeks.

The fatigue system is also a time sink, but functions a bit differently. It still works off of the concept that players should only attain a certain amount of progression per week, but it doles out that progression more quickly up front. This has two important effects. First, it means that even those who cannot play 6-8 hours a day every day can make some progress. Not as much overall, but some. Second, it means that after the week's progression on one class has been reached, players are free to mess around with others--a level of freedom and diversification that most games don't have.

Make no mistake; if SE decides that you should only gain 3 levels in a class per week, then that is all you will gain. Without fatigue--with a basic XP system--all your play time in that week would be devoted to a single class as XP requirements increase to compensate, and wanting to level something else would mean sacrificing progression in that one class.

With the fatigue system, instead of sacrificing XP time to do things that don't involve leveling your main class, you get to have all the XP you'd normally get for the week anyway, and then focus on other aspects of the game. Want to level another class? Go do it. Want to quest? Sure. How about crafting? Also an option. Or maybe you just want to explore. In other MMOs, all of these activities come at the cost of XP. That is not the case here. And if you really want to grind away at one class well, you can hop on it at the beginning of the week, and still have time to hit it again later in the week after surplus has cleared from not leveling it. Bonus!

Final Fantasy XIV was designed with a certain philosophy. The fatigue system is part of enacting that philosophy. It is no more limiting than a standard XP system, as progression is balanced around it. It offers more freedom than conventional systems, simply by allowing for different allocations of play time with no penalty. Can it stand some tweaking and balancing? Probably. But doing away with it entirely will cause a progression rebalance what will completely undermine any kind of horizontal character development, as well as force unnecessary choices between whether to XP a main class, or do anything else. And the ultimate gain on main class progression will be no different.


The system got a lot of heated response when it was first announced. I think that calling it asinine is a little harsh. I actually don't have any problems at all with it. 15 hours a week of exp per class is plenty for me, thank you.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 5:59 pm 
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Yeah, it still sucks. I don't want to play multiple classes. I want to focus on one. I shouldn't be shut out of the game for a whole week just because I've already put my 8 hours in this week.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 6:26 pm 
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FFXIV just isn't for you then. There isn't a single person that's going to stick to only one class. Why would you relegate yourself to one role when you can mix and match? Being able to heal yourself as a warrior sure would be useful!


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 6:33 pm 
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Given the fact that everything I've seen of the game reminds me of FFXI(which is one of the most horrible MMOs ever created), I already knew the game wasn't for me. But this xp crap just made it even worse.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:24 pm 
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Well, if anyone else has a controller to play with and also doesn't have a tendency to hate everything, I recommend forming your own opinion :p I have my own disagreements with the game, but I feel like the good right now at least out-weighs the bad. That may change as I play more. We'll see.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:28 pm 
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Yeah. I am just expressing my opinion.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 7:04 am 
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I've been playing FF14 since the first phase of the closed beta test. The game is really designed for playing multiple classes anyway, similar to Final Fantasy Tactics in some regards. I'm remaining cautiously optimistic about the fatigue system. So far, it hasn't really hampered my play style. I am normally strongly averse toward systems in place that penalize players, but these days MMOs need to distinguish themselves from the giant that is WoW. FF14 is *not* a WoW clone, which to me is a big plus in its favor.

If you were considering FF14 but were put off by this system, I'd suggest giving it a chance anyway if you're looking for something different from WoW.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 7:02 pm 
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Actually, that experience system sounds kind of interesting. I tend to play just one class, too, so it would seem like this is screwing me. At the same time, I sometimes get the bug to play another class if just to see how they work. I don't even have much desire to make a twink, I just want to play around for a couple of levels to see some of their abilities. In EQ, I'd level a caster or a priest up to level 5. In WoW, I'd dink and donk a character up to 10. Basically, I fart around for an evening and that's all.

Under this system I wouldn't have to go through the effort of making a second character, I just change classes. Furthermore, I'm not able to apply full experience to my primary class, so it makes sense to **** around as a shadowknight for a few hours. Then maybe I tool around with a monk. I'm a level 65 ranger with harm touch and flying kick. That could be kind of cool.

Another beef I always had with EQ and WoW was the powerleveled twinks who had no concept of how to play their class. This type of system would encourage the veteran players to drop back to some of the lower level zones to work up side classes. I'm still logged in as my ranger, I've just switched to a druid. Now, rather than going out and pulling all of sol A to porcupine goblins to death while my lower level buddy kicks everything, we actually have to kill them legitimately. Of course, I want the experience for all this crap, too. I might end up forming a full group and going to town because now it isn't only about how fast I can get experience for my friend, I'm also in it for me. Which is another positive - I don't have to worry about how long it will take my friend to catch up to me, and how the fatigue system is holding them to a certain pace. I can already go play with my friend on my main character, and I get something to show for it for it.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 8:10 pm 
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Finished initial quest chain. Still enjoying the game, but I gotta get to rank 10 before the next quest.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 1:41 pm 
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The updater seems to be atrociously bad.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 7:11 pm 
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Yeah it is. The most recent patch was downright non-functional on their updater. I use utorrent for my updates so I didn't notice the problem, personally.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 8:35 pm 
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You can navigate to user/documents/my games/ffxiv/patch and find the torrent file to run in a client of your choice. Once downloaded, copy/overwrite the patch file in an adjacent directory and run the launcher again.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 9:12 pm 
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Yeah, I found some handy threads on ffxivcore.com, or rather, Google did. This seems to be the best one. The SE updater seems to be going fine once I poked the necessary holes in my firewall. There's just no getting around the 5GB patch, that's what I'm waiting on right now.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 9:44 pm 
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Open beta is ending on the 19th, and CE buyers get to start playing live on the 22nd. I think I'm going to play the game, but I wont be dropping the extra cash for the CE, so I'll be starting on the 30th.

I think with a few tweaks this could be a good casual MMO.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 9:32 am 
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I like the sound of that experience system. Reminds me of the old BBS door games where you had your turn, once a day, to do what you wanted, and then there just wasn't anything else you could do after that.

The downside will be if you start late, there will be absolutely no way to catch up. In two years, how do they attract new players, if those players won't be able to compete with the veteran players? The only other option would be to remove the experience cap, and at that point you piss off your vets. They're going to have really strong initial sales if they want to make back what they spent to make the game.

Still, as an ex-hardcore (now casual) player, this system appeals to me.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 10:48 am 
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I suspect that the fatigue system will be modified more than once as the game gets older.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 12:28 pm 
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Somewhere in those articles I did read that the lost experience does get put somewhere. You've still earned it and it's floating around, it just isn't used for anything, yet.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 1:55 pm 
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I've been playing. It seems to be a good time, although I'm not sure how much look and feel of final fantasy it retains. On the other hand, I haven't played any FF since VII, and I didn't even bother to finish that one.

I like the ability to switch off classes, and that you can mix and match abilities. It makes things a little more reasonable, I think. At least for the combat classes. I haven't really found a lot of useful cross-pollination in the crafting and gathering classes.

I'm not sure that crafting is really up to snuff. It looks like the goal is to have an almost purely player-driven economy, with anything past starting gear needing to be created by a player. However, there's not, from what I can tell, enough give to the crafting system. I've tried out blacksmithing (and a little leatherworking), and you would expect smelting ore to be one of the basic tasks. Yet I've only managed to succeed at it once in a half a dozen tries. Maybe I've been unlucky, but I've done smithing quests without any trouble. Not only that, a lot of the recipes look to be too specific. What difference would it really make if I had an ash handle vs. a maple handle? It's the difference between a valid recipe and an invalid one, apparently.

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