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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 6:42 pm 
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Once again, that's incredibly short-sighted.

1) It doesn't even adequately describe utilitarian ethics; it's ethical egoism.

2)Using one instance where utilitarian ethics ethical egoism seems to have worked in your mind does not make it "the only way to go". I won't even deign to counter your non sequitur regarding "conservatives".

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 7:06 pm 
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Xequecal wrote:
I would have to agree that utilitarian ethics is the only way to go.

For example, the US propping up fascist dictators during the Cold War is certainly incredibly immoral on any kind of black and white ethics system, we helped them massacre people. Hell, we even overthrew legitimately democratically-elected governments when it suited us. But how many people, especially conservatives who are much more likely to espouse black-and-white ethics, are going to say we shouldn't have done any of that? The fact is we did it because it would have been worse for us if we hadn't, and everyone else can get ****.


This actually illustrates the problem with utilitarian ethics. It's almost impossible to calculate whether more people were benefitted or harmed by such actions, to what degree, and within what timeframe.

Amusingly, many people who claim to be in favor of utilitarian ethics would completely ignore any actual gain, because in reality they aren't utilitarians. They reject any benefit gained by the U.S. because they also want it to be a prioi unethical for a large, powerful, rich nation to do anything to its own advantage in dealing with a smaller, poorer one (bonus points for racism, as well) and thus any "utilitarian" calculation by them is going to be preordained to decide that the action was unethical.

Ultimately, the reason morals and ethics exist is to allow people to interact without slaughtering each other. Consistency within an ethical system is only useful as long as it pursues societal harmony (by which I mean the ability of people to live peaceably together, not some utopian idea of harmony). As soon as you cross the line into demanding absurdity, or self-sacrifice for no purpose other than the internal consistency of the ethical system for its own sake, you've just defeated the entire purpose of the system.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 8:34 pm 
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Ultimately, the moral thing to do is to leave the boat yourself and let the others live.

John 15:13 is appropriate here.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 10:09 pm 
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Utilitarian ethics aren't the Ten Commandments.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 10:12 pm 
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Given the choice between commit murder of an innocent or sacrifice myself to save others, I'll still go with John 15:13.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:01 am 
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Corolinth wrote:
Utilitarian ethics aren't the Ten Commandments.


John 15:13 is neither utilitarian ethics nor one of the Ten Commandments.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:30 am 
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Talya wrote:
That's just stupid. If the majority of humanity really thought that way, we'd have been extinct a hundred thousand years ago. But despite what we like to think we would do, in reality, we're almost all consequentialist. People do what they have to do. And that's how it should be, if the species is to survive and prosper.


Interestingly, game theory suggests that's backwards. Cooperation, fairness, altruism, etc. are all significant contributors to long-term success in multi-round experiments and simulations.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:30 am 
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Not necessarily. Earning the goodwill of the rest of your species is also beneficial to yourself. Game theory and the conclusions drawn from it are not at odds with Taly's argument. Would you rather fight to the death with every man in your county for all the women in that region, or split them all up so that everyone is free to have a woman they like? Even if you were the biggest and strongest, and you could kill every other nearby man, you'd be dead by forty when some young stud dethroned you. If we do it the way game theory proposes, you get to live a long life (and with a woman!) without having to watch over your back every time you take a ****. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see how that's the more appealing outcome in a "do what we have to do" society.

Now, it will break down in individual, isolated circumstances: if your species is not alive to reciprocate your goodwill, or you are not alive to benefit from their reciprocation.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:18 am 
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Micheal wrote:
Given the choice between commit murder of an innocent or sacrifice myself to save others, I'll still go with John 15:13.


Dibs on Micheal's nuts!


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