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PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:44 pm 
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DFK! wrote:

Cruel and unusual means whatever it meant at the time the document was authored. Shouldn't be too hard to look up, de Tocqueville's work was relatively contemporaneous.



"Cruel and Unusual" is now, and always has been, a subjective phrase. As are terms like "reasonable" and "unreasonable."

I wouldn't go so far as to compare it to "The Bible," myself.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 3:32 pm 
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DFK! wrote:
Cruel and unusual means whatever it meant at the time the document was authored.

Interesting. I must have missed the line in the Constitution that says such phrase should be understood as a specific reference to the standards of the day and may not evolve to keep pace with the standards of future eras. Presumably it's in the same section that says the term "arms", by contrast, is to be understood as a general concept that should evolve to keep pace with the technology of future eras?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 3:49 pm 
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Just thinking about it, there are other constitutional issues that have had their meanings changed over time, due to technological advances. Privacy and how it's achieved in the face of technology issues come to mind, primarily, but I'm sure there are others.

Things have to change, boundaries have to be re-interpreted, in order to prevent the letter of the law from eating away at the intent of the law.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 3:58 pm 
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Talya wrote:
DFK! wrote:

Cruel and unusual means whatever it meant at the time the document was authored. Shouldn't be too hard to look up, de Tocqueville's work was relatively contemporaneous.



"Cruel and Unusual" is now, and always has been, a subjective phrase. As are terms like "reasonable" and "unreasonable."

I wouldn't go so far as to compare it to "The Bible," myself.


The comparison isn't between the documents. It's of the viwpoint in both cases that the writing "doesn't need to be interpreted". In both cases, it's just pretending that one viewpoint isn't an interpretation because its the one the speaker agrees with.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:49 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
DFK! wrote:
Cruel and unusual means whatever it meant at the time the document was authored.

Interesting. I must have missed the line in the Constitution that says such phrase should be understood as a specific reference to the standards of the day and may not evolve to keep pace with the standards of future eras. Presumably it's in the same section that says the term "arms", by contrast, is to be understood as a general concept that should evolve to keep pace with the technology of future eras?


Arms shouldn't have evolved either.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:52 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
The comparison isn't between the documents. It's of the viwpoint in both cases that the writing "doesn't need to be interpreted". In both cases, it's just pretending that one viewpoint isn't an interpretation because its the one the speaker agrees with.


Your entire argument is strawman, and your continued bare assertions prove a whole lot of stupidity, but not a lot of fact. Feel free to keep doing it though, obviously. It's a [semi-]public forum.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 6:47 pm 
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DFK! wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
The comparison isn't between the documents. It's of the viwpoint in both cases that the writing "doesn't need to be interpreted". In both cases, it's just pretending that one viewpoint isn't an interpretation because its the one the speaker agrees with.


Your entire argument is strawman, and your continued bare assertions prove a whole lot of stupidity, but not a lot of fact. Feel free to keep doing it though, obviously. It's a [semi-]public forum.

You have yet to make a substantial argument in regard to your own point. FurThermore, "bare assertion" is a **** joke on this forum, and a meaningless criticism. All you're doing at this point is trying to get a last word in.
Then again, your entire position is so outlandishly impractical, unworkable, and without merit that it doesn't warrant anything but internet argument anyhow.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:52 am 
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RangerDave wrote:
DFK! wrote:
Cruel and unusual means whatever it meant at the time the document was authored.

Interesting. I must have missed the line in the Constitution that says such phrase should be understood as a specific reference to the standards of the day and may not evolve to keep pace with the standards of future eras. Presumably it's in the same section that says the term "arms", by contrast, is to be understood as a general concept that should evolve to keep pace with the technology of future eras?



DFK - Should I take this to mean you do not believe that any form of communication is speech unless it is done via soapbox in public, quill written letters, or hand pressed notes nailed on public houses?

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:22 am 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
RangerDave wrote:
DFK! wrote:
Cruel and unusual means whatever it meant at the time the document was authored.

Interesting. I must have missed the line in the Constitution that says such phrase should be understood as a specific reference to the standards of the day and may not evolve to keep pace with the standards of future eras. Presumably it's in the same section that says the term "arms", by contrast, is to be understood as a general concept that should evolve to keep pace with the technology of future eras?



DFK - Should I take this to mean you do not believe that any form of communication is speech unless it is done via soapbox in public, quill written letters, or hand pressed notes nailed on public houses?


Yes, that's exactly what you should believe... :roll:


Edit: I think you guys are failing to understand the differences between interpretation of the document and interpretation of the document's applicability. Perhaps I'm failing to communicate it. If so, whatever, the biases on display indicate it isn't really worth much time trying to elaborate.

Suffice to say, RD and Elmo, that an interpretation of "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed," does not need to be conducted. We can use sources at the time to know what this means, and things such as "shall not be infringed" leaves essentially no room for interpretation.

Now, should "keep and bear arms" be applicable to, say, tanks or jet fighters? Perhaps not. It's a subtle distinction (language vs. applicability), but an important one.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:27 pm 
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Still not getting your meaning at all.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:32 pm 
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There is a difference between the definition of "arms" and the variable (mostly by addition) set of things which are contained in the list of "arms".

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:51 pm 
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Funny how the idea of language "evolving" only ever enters into the discussion when someone wants to limit the rights of citizens.

As for the definitions of certain terms and what we think they mean today vis a vis the Constitution, I notice that when Supreme Court Justices write their opinions (majority or dissenting), they include copious citations and references to documents written in the 1700s and 1800s. I wonder if I should use their example to determine who the real, genuine legal experts of today are, as opposed to agenda-driven political hacks?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:12 am 
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Supreme Court justices are within their rights to consider whatever prior material they wish. No one has suggested that language and meanings at the time of the Constitution's writing ought to be ignored, only that they don't govern. As for language evolving coming up in those discussions, that's because that's the time its most appropriate. Langage evolving doesn't come up in every topic just for the hell of it.

The fact is that language as it existed in 1787 or any other point is not binding upon us. There is no particular reason that we should stick exactly to those meanings; it certainly does not mandate that anywhere in the Constitution itself. There is no particular reason we need to stick only to the intent of the founders; even if there was a singular discernible intent and were not reliant entirely upon the opinion of a few prominent individuals who let their vanity get the better of them and presumed to present their own opinions of the law be presented as definitive. Hugo Black, who said a great many things most people here will agree with, and did far more in his life for the betterment and defense of liberty in this country that sit around and complain about "tyranny" all the time, had something to say on this, since people are so in love with quoting authority figures:

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While I have always believed that under the First and Fourteenth Amendments neither the State nor the Federal Government has any authority to regulate or censor the content of speech, I have never believed that any person has a right to give speeches or engage in demonstrations where he pleases and when he pleases.[73]

Moreover, Black took a narrow view of what constituted "speech" under the First Amendment; for him, "conduct" did not deserve the same protections that "speech" did.[74] For example, he did not believe that flag burning was speech; in Street v. New York (1969), he wrote: "It passes my belief that anything in the Federal Constitution bars a State from making the deliberate burning of the American flag an offense."[75] Similarly, he dissented from Cohen v. California (1971), in which the Court held that wearing a jacket emblazoned with the words "**** the Draft" was speech protected by the First Amendment. He agreed that this activity "was mainly conduct, and little speech."


If you want literalism and complete lack of interpretation, you will quickly find that your rights are far more constricted than if the court interprets how they apply to cases not clearly envisioned by the text. There wasn't any single exactl meaning for "cruel and unusual" or "shall not be infringed" in 1787, and there isn't now and that applyies to most of the Constitution. The plain meaning of the text to the common person is what is most important because it is the people's Constitution. Part of the reason we put it in the hands of judges is so that individual political subsets do not get to tell the rest of "We the People" how their document is to be used.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 8:07 pm 
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http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government ... w-campaign

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On Friday, the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) announced a national initiative it titles “Trayvon’s Law,” designed to “end racial profiling, repeal stand your ground laws, form effective civil complaint review boards to provide oversight of police misconduct, improve training for community watch groups, mandate law enforcement to collect data on homicide cases involving non-whites, and address the school to prison pipeline,” according to CEO Ben Jealous. Jealous said, “What happened to Trayvon Martin must never happen again. Trayvon’s Law will serve as the foundation for community advocates as they work to end laws and practices that contributed to his death and to create new policies that will prevent further tragedies.”


The NAACP has yet to explain how the George Zimmerman case was related to racial profiling, stand your ground, or police misconduct.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 11:26 am 
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(CNN) -- Lawyers for George Zimmerman, who successfully argued self-defense after their client killed Trayvon Martin, are preparing to ask Florida to reimburse them at least $200,000 for expenses, a spokesman for lead attorney George O'Mara said Tuesday.

Because Zimmerman was acquitted, Florida law allows for the defendant to recoup some expenses in the case.

Shawn Vincent said the numbers are being tabulated and a request will be submitted within a few weeks. O'Mara expects they will ask for $200,000 to $300,000, Vincent said.

Zimmerman pulled over in Texas for speeding, given warning

The costs may include money spent for expert witnesses, travel expenses and fees for transcripts.
George Zimmerman may face civil suit

Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch volunteer who fatally shot Martin in February 2012 in Sanford, was acquitted by a jury in July on second-degree murder and manslaughter charges.

The case sparked a heated nationwide discussion of race as well as debate over Florida's "stand your ground" law. Martin was an unarmed black teenager, and Zimmerman identifies himself as Hispanic.

Zimmerman argued that he shot Martin after he and the teenager fought, and he feared for his life. The prosecution said Zimmerman had profiled Martin because he was black, followed him and shot him during a confrontation.

Zimmerman's defense never cited "stand your ground" laws in its case, but jurors were instructed to consider them during deliberations in the high-profile trial.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:22 pm 
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Uncle Fester wrote:
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/08/02/NAACP-launches-trayvon-law-campaign

Quote:
On Friday, the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) announced a national initiative it titles “Trayvon’s Law,” designed to “end racial profiling, repeal stand your ground laws, form effective civil complaint review boards to provide oversight of police misconduct, improve training for community watch groups, mandate law enforcement to collect data on homicide cases involving non-whites, and address the school to prison pipeline,” according to CEO Ben Jealous. Jealous said, “What happened to Trayvon Martin must never happen again. Trayvon’s Law will serve as the foundation for community advocates as they work to end laws and practices that contributed to his death and to create new policies that will prevent further tragedies.”


The NAACP has yet to explain how the George Zimmerman case was related to racial profiling, stand your ground, or police misconduct.



What a farce.

"mandate law enforcement to collect data on homicide cases involving non-whites"
Yup, nobody collects that data :derp:

"What happened to Trayvon Martin must never happen again."
Nothing would have happened to Trayvon Martin, if he hadn't decided to give that gay creepy *** cracka a whoop ***.


So, has anything come of the Justice Department's Stasi-esque "civil rights violation investigation" beyond what was found by the Feds pre-trial?

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:30 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Quote:
(CNN) -- Lawyers for George Zimmerman, who successfully argued self-defense after their client killed Trayvon Martin, are preparing to ask Florida to reimburse them at least $200,000 for expenses, a spokesman for lead attorney George O'Mara said Tuesday.

Because Zimmerman was acquitted, Florida law allows for the defendant to recoup some expenses in the case.

Shawn Vincent said the numbers are being tabulated and a request will be submitted within a few weeks. O'Mara expects they will ask for $200,000 to $300,000, Vincent said.

Zimmerman pulled over in Texas for speeding, given warning

The costs may include money spent for expert witnesses, travel expenses and fees for transcripts.
George Zimmerman may face civil suit

Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch volunteer who fatally shot Martin in February 2012 in Sanford, was acquitted by a jury in July on second-degree murder and manslaughter charges.

The case sparked a heated nationwide discussion of race as well as debate over Florida's "stand your ground" law. Martin was an unarmed black teenager, and Zimmerman identifies himself as Hispanic.

Zimmerman argued that he shot Martin after he and the teenager fought, and he feared for his life. The prosecution said Zimmerman had profiled Martin because he was black, followed him and shot him during a confrontation.

Zimmerman's defense never cited "stand your ground" laws in its case, but jurors were instructed to consider them during deliberations in the high-profile trial.



"Zimmerman identifies himself as Hispanic."

They just gotta find a way to leave some people the ability to call it a "white on black murder". See, he identifies himself as Hispanic, wink wink, but we know the truth...

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:38 pm 
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Vindicarre wrote:


"Zimmerman identifies himself as Hispanic."

They just gotta find a way to leave some people the ability to call it a "white on black murder". See, he identifies himself as Hispanic, wink wink, but we know the truth...


Remember, Hispanics are all named Gonzalez, Rodriguez, Garcia, or Hernandez. Not Zimmerman, that's a white name.. Just like Vicente Fox wasn't really Hispanic...

oh.. wait...

Maybe he should start referring to himself as Jorge Zimmerman.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:17 pm 
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Jorge Zimmhermano ;)

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