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 Post subject: Open Rebellion
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:28 pm 
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http://www.lvrj.com/news/oath-keepers-pledges-to-prevent-dictatorship-in-united-states-64690232.html

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READY TO REVOLT: Oath Keepers pledges to prevent dictatorship in United States

Group asks police and military to lay down arms in response to orders deemed unlawful

By ALAN MAIMON
LAS VEGAS REVIEW-JOURNAL
Depending on your perspective, the Oath Keepers are either strident defenders of liberty or dangerous peddlers of paranoia.

In the age of town halls, talk radio and tea parties, middle ground of opinion is hard to find.

Launched in March by Las Vegan Stewart Rhodes, Oath Keepers bills itself as a nonpartisan group of current and retired law enforcement and military personnel who vow to fulfill their oaths to the Constitution.

More specifically, the group's members, which number in the thousands, pledge to disobey orders they deem unlawful, including directives to disarm the American people and to blockade American cities. By refusing the latter order, the Oath Keepers hope to prevent cities from becoming "giant concentration camps," a scenario the 44-year-old Rhodes says he can envision happening in the coming years.

It's a Cold War-era nightmare vision with a major twist: The occupying forces in this imagined future are American, not Soviet.

"The whole point of Oath Keepers is to stop a dictatorship from ever happening here," Rhodes, a former Army paratrooper and Yale-trained lawyer, said in an interview with the Review-Journal. "My focus is on the guys with the guns, because they can't do it without them.

"We say if the American people decide it's time for a revolution, we'll fight with you."

That type of rhetoric has caught the attention of groups that track extremist activity in the United States.

In a July report titled "Return of the Militias," the Alabama-based Southern Poverty Law Center singled out Oath Keepers as "a particularly worrisome example of the Patriot revival."

The Patriot movement, so named because its adherents believe the federal government has stepped on the constitutional ideals of the American Revolution, gained traction in the 1990s and has been closely linked to anti-government militia and white supremacist movements.

The movement is blamed for spawning Timothy McVeigh, who bombed a federal building in Oklahoma City in 1995, killing 168 people.

"I'm not accusing Stewart Rhodes or any member of his group of being Timothy McVeigh or a future Timothy McVeigh," law center spokesman Mark Potok said. "But these kinds of conspiracy theories are what drive a small number of people to criminal violence. ... What's troubling about Oath Keepers is the idea that men and women armed and ordered to protect the public in this country are clearly being drawn into a world of false conspiracy theory."

Oath Keepers got some unwanted attention in April when an Oklahoma man loosely connected to the group was arrested for threatening violence at an anti-tax protest in Oklahoma City. Rhodes called the man "a nut" who had no real affiliation with his group.

Nonetheless, Potok's group now monitors Oath Keepers on its Web site blog "Hatewatch."

Oath Keepers is not preaching violence or government overthrow, Rhodes said. On the contrary, it is asking police and the military to lay down their arms in response to unlawful orders.

The group's Web site, www.oathkeepers.org, features videos and testimonials in which supporters compare President Barack Obama's America to Adolf Hitler's Germany. They also liken Obama to England's King George III during the American Revolution.

One member, in a videotaped speech at an event in Washington, D.C., calls Obama "the domestic enemy the Constitution is talking about."

According to the law center, militia groups are re-emerging in this country partly as a result of racial animosity toward Obama.

It's the "cross-pollinating" of extremist groups -- some racist, some not -- that is of concern, Potok said. As evidence that the danger is real, he points to several recent murders committed by men with anti-government or racist views.

The U.S. Department of Homeland Security reached a similar conclusion in a report earlier this year about the rise of right-wing extremism. The report said the nation's economic downturn and Obama's race are "unique drivers for right-wing radicalization and recruitment."

The homeland security report added that "disgruntled military veterans" might be vulnerable to recruitment by right-wing extremist groups.

That warning was enough to make Rhodes feel paranoid.

"They're accusing anybody who opposes Obama of being a racist or a potential terrorist," he said. "What they're saying is, 'We're coming after you.'"

The motto of Oath Keepers: "Not on our watch!"

The message Rhodes hears from the government: We're watching you.

Las Vegas police Lt. Kevin McMahill said his department's homeland security bureau isn't overly concerned with Oath Keepers at this point, even though Rhodes says several active-duty Las Vegas officers are members of the group.

"I wouldn't classify Oath Keepers as no threat at all, but I wouldn't classify them as a threat either," McMahill said. "There's always a chance an individual can step outside the boundaries of what an organization stands for and do something wrong."

Rhodes, a former firearms instructor, said he easily could have started Oath Keepers during the Bush administration, but his focus during those years was first on getting his law degree and then volunteering on the 2008 presidential campaign of Texas Congressman Ron Paul, a libertarian Republican in whose office Rhodes worked during the 1990s.

What Rhodes terms "the rise of executive privilege" during the post-9/11 years of the Bush presidency will in his opinion only accelerate with Obama in office. What's worse, he said, is that "gun-hating extremists" now control the White House.

Two things have happened since the Homeland Security Department and Southern Poverty Law Center released their reports on extremism: Membership of Oath Keepers has spiked dramatically. And Rhodes has had to do a lot of explaining.

"We're not a militia," he said. "And we're not part and parcel of the white supremacist movement. I loathe white supremacists."

Oath Keepers doesn't offer paramilitary training; nor does it have a military command structure. It instead has board members, which include directors in seven states and outreach coordinators to currently serving local and federal law enforcement and military personnel. The group's state director in Montana, who goes by the name Elias Alias, has said Montana and other states should consider seceding from the United States in protest of the federal government's conduct.

Leaders of the group will come together in Las Vegas starting Oct. 24 for the inaugural national conference of Oath Keepers.

Among the group's other leaders is Dave Freeman, an Army veteran and former Las Vegas police sergeant who spent more than 30 years with the Metropolitan Police Department.

For Freeman, Oath Keepers has become something of a family affair. He recruited his niece, a former police chief, to serve as state director for Oath Keepers in Massachusetts.

"When you believe in something, you have to do more than just pay it lip service," said Freeman, the group's Southern Nevada director and national peace officer liaison. "This is a crusade I believe in."

Another prominent Oath Keeper is former Arizona sheriff Richard Mack, who has long been an outspoken government critic.

The Southern Poverty Law Center calls Mack a "longtime militia hero" who helped weaken gun control laws.

An incident earlier this year in rural Iowa, not inside the Washington Beltway, motivated Rhodes to start Oath Keepers.

He questioned why the Iowa National Guard planned to use residents of a small town to participate in training on door-to-door searches for weapons.

The Guard said the training was to help soldiers who might be asked to carry out similar searches in Iraq or Afghanistan.

But for Rhodes, it looked like preparation for a future declaration of martial law. It reminded him of the response to Hurricane Katrina in 2005 when police officers reportedly confiscated legally owned firearms. What the government called emergency response after the levees broke, Rhodes saw as the imposition of martial law.

If it hadn't been for April 19 of this year, Oath Keepers might not have gained the notoriety it now has.

On the anniversary of the Battle of Lexington Green, the Massachusetts battle that started the American Revolution in 1775, a group of Oath Keepers went to the battle site and reaffirmed their pledge to the Constitution.

The gathering was mentioned in the Southern Poverty Law Center report because April 19 is also the anniversary of the deadly end to the federal siege on the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas, in 1993; and of the retaliatory bombing of the Oklahoma City federal building in 1995.

Rhodes and Potok have never talked, but if they did, they might find themselves speaking a different language.

"Let them say what they want to say, but April 19 has very much become a day for the extreme radical right," Potok said.

Rhodes couldn't disagree more.

"There are thousands of Americans who go to Lexington to watch re-enactments of people shooting at troops," Rhodes said. "But if you're a group of military and police there, they somehow find this offensive."

Rhodes said he hopes Oath Keepers members think about the lawfulness of day-to-day orders they receive.

For example, if a police officer feels he is being asked to do an illegal search of a home or vehicle, he should stand down.

Rhodes eventually wants to create a legal defense fund for Oath Keepers who are disciplined by their employers for defying orders they deem unlawful or immoral.

"The message to law enforcement is not to become a tool of oppression," he said.

Rhodes, a husband and father of five home-schooled children, said he gets hundreds of e-mails a day, mostly from people interested in knowing more about his group.

He also gets a lot of questions from "birthers" wanting to know if he thinks Obama is really an American citizen and from "truthers" asking whether he believes the attacks of 9/11 were an inside job. The group doesn't have an official position on either issue, he said.

Some of his responses to questions have turned would-be allies against him.

"I've been accused of being a traitor or a CIA operative because I'm not coming out and declaring that the H1N1 (swine flu) vaccine is a biological weapon," he said.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:45 am 
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And the divide grows.

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 Post subject: Re: Open Rebellion
PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:12 am 
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A violent uprising is just want the government wants. Do not play into their hands.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 7:51 am 
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Wow, they are completely mischaracterizing the intention of this group. It's a way of protecting The Constitution through inaction on the part of LEO's, not active rebellion. Nothing more.

Also @ "I wouldn't classify Oath Keepers as no threat at all, but I wouldn't classify them as a threat either," McMahill said.

Rick James wrote:
See, I never just did things just to do them. Come on, what am I gonna do? Just all of a sudden jump up and grind my feet on somebody's couch like it's something to do? Come on. I had a little more sense than that. [short pause] Yeah, I remember grinding my feet on Eddie's couch.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:18 am 
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This is anything but open rebellion. The fact that this group can openly exist demonstrates that the things they are concerned about aren't a serious likelyhood.

It does, however, provide yet another example of how they SPLC slaps the "hate group" or another label on the politics of anyone they don't like.

As for the Iowa Guard thing, who cares? It's good for people to see how their soldiers perform and what they do. Most likely, most of the guardsmen participating live in that town or nearby. This "ZOMG could be a cover for plans to take over the country!" is absurd. Gee.. house-to-house search skills are needed every day in IRaq and Afghanistn.. nah, that couldn't be the motive. It must be a secret government takeover utilizing the Iowa ARNG!

Nah, couldn't bethe upcoming deployment. This is just this Rhodes guy "questioning" why they would try to train in that fashion. Ok, question it. There's perfectly good answers. Just because you're questioning it doesn't mean there's problem.

It'd also be nice to know which of these units he's talking about and what town so we could maybe see how the soldiers and residents felt about it instead of just one guy's suspicions.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:49 am 
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Sounds like the program being questioned, but the date is from earlier this year. Not sure the time frame suggested in the OP.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:08 am 
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Most likely it is. Unit-level training this in-depth is conducted during Year 4 of the ARFORGEN cycle (the cycle that reserve and NG units go through to determine deployment availability). A new fiscal year began on OCT 1st, and apparently Iowa has a Brigade Comabt team (or similar-sized element) deploying this year, or Year 5 (the available year).

Each of the 5 years in the cycle has its own emphasis with Year 5 being the deployable year, whether or not the unit is actually selected for deployment. This is the sort of training normally conducted in Year 4.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:55 am 
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Wants to paint them as a para military group recruiting armed individuals.

Of course if it was a leftist group that was getting police and soldiers to swear to disobey unlawful orders they would be lauded.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7Li_CoNazI

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 12:02 pm 
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Do we really need 2 threads on these guys?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 12:37 pm 
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Merged this topic and "open rebellion" threads.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 12:41 pm 
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...

I was hoping to take that thread in the direction of irresponsible and biased reporting on that network. "The Chris Matthews Show" is billed as a news show.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 12:53 pm 
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Elmo loses at message boards today.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 12:56 pm 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
...

I was hoping to take that thread in the direction of irresponsible and biased reporting on that network. "The Chris Matthews Show" is billed as a news show.


Take it wherever you want.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:05 am 
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If this had been a left wing group during the Bush administration, they would have been branded as terrorists, and people would have been clamouring all over the news to have them rounded up as dangerous traitors and america-haters.

Why this group becomes prominent now, when they seemed to be utterly silent during the Bush administration, is pretty telling. And I think it supports the SPLC's assessment of the group.

This sort of paranoia and conspiracy mongering works as a dog whistle for crazy individuals and small groups, who then go on to committ violence. An excellent example is the guy that killed two people at the Unitarian church in Knoxville. He said, very clearly -

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"Know this if nothing else: This was a hate crime. I hate the damn left-wing liberals. There is a vast left-wing conspiracy in this country & these liberals are working together to attack every decent & honorable institution in the nation, trying to turn this country into a communist state. Shame on them....

"This was a symbolic killing. Who I wanted to kill was every Democrat in the Senate & House, the 100 people in Bernard Goldberg's book. I'd like to kill everyone in the mainstream media. But I know those people were inaccessible to me. I couldn't get to the generals & high ranking officers of the Marxist movement so I went after the foot soldiers, the chickenshit liberals that vote in these traitorous people. Someone had to get the ball rolling. I volunteered. I hope others do the same. It's the only way we can rid America of this cancerous pestilence."

"I thought I'd do something good for this Country Kill Democrats til the cops kill me....Liberals are a pest like termites. Millions of them Each little bite contributes to the downfall of this great nation. The only way we can rid ourselves of this evil is to kill them in the streets. Kill them where they gather. I'd like to encourage other like minded people to do what I've done. If life aint worth living anymore don't just kill yourself. do something for your Country before you go. Go Kill Liberals.


Crazy people take crazy ideas and then go kill, based on those ideas. The books this man read, the things he was told, directly contributed to his act, which took two lives and terrorized a community.

Groups like this militia are breeding grounds fo that brand of crazy. They are blowing their dog whistle as hard as they possibly can, hoping to change the results of our democratic process with an assasin's bullet or bomb.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:44 am 
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No - they would have been branded as unpatriotic for not wanting to obey orders.

Taking the position of doing nothing can hardly be considered terrorists. Also if there are crazies in the organization they've promised to not do a lot of things - all of which are good not to do.

How horrible?

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Armed militia groups with clearly anti-American agendas are dangerous. I'm sorry if that offends some people to say so, but they are. Groups like this spawn tragedies like the Oklahoma City bombing. No, they are rarely directly involved, but they always seem to be there lurking about the case.

The guy who murdered liberals because they were liberals was directly inspired by right wing hate speech coming from mainstream authors and commentators like O'Reilly, Savage, and Hannity (among others). I can't imagine the paranoid delusions spewed by these guys would be more moderate.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 8:24 pm 
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Monte wrote:
Armed militia groups with clearly anti-American agendas are dangerous. I'm sorry if that offends some people to say so, but they are. Groups like this spawn tragedies like the Oklahoma City bombing. No, they are rarely directly involved, but they always seem to be there lurking about the case.

The guy who murdered liberals because they were liberals was directly inspired by right wing hate speech coming from mainstream authors and commentators like O'Reilly, Savage, and Hannity (among others). I can't imagine the paranoid delusions spewed by these guys would be more moderate.



How does this post relate to this topic?

But to draw a parallel for your specfic tangent, you could say the exact same thing about many organizations. Sharpton, Jackson, New Black Panthers, ACORN, Van Jones, Louie Farhakahn the calypso singer, and Rev Wright plus any number of other violent liberal extremist groups.

I think the safest thing to say is that the fringe groups are just that- fringes. They don't represent the core of the movements they adhere themselves to. Anything else might be considered.... inflammatory.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:21 pm 
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First of all, what liberal "extremist" groups are actually violent? Seriously? I don't know of any heavily armed liberal groups out there, nor can I think of any liberal groups that espouse the violent overthrow of government when the government doesn't wind up looking they way they want it to.

When has Sharpton or Jackson advocated for violent action? Or ACORN? Or Van Jones? Even the Reverend Wright?

That's the key difference here, so stop trying to draw a false equivalence that in no way exists. Even the most heated rhetoric from Rev. Wright pales in comparison to advocating an open, violent rebellion against the United States government. Saying God Damn America is one thing. Advocating the violent overthrow of our government is another (and, if I am not mistaken, a federal crime).

So, seriously - name the violent liberal extremist groups? Just the eco terrorists? That's the only thing I can think of.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:28 pm 
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Actually, violent liberal groups are very well documented, have been posted to this board, and can be found with a simple internet search.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:07 pm 
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Monte wrote:
So, seriously - name the violent liberal extremist groups? Just the eco terrorists? That's the only thing I can think of.

Umm, Weather Underground, Black Panthers, ELF, PETA, etc. etc. If we want to go outside the country, how about Stalin, Mao, and Castro's communist revolutions. There are extremist groups on both sides and some of them have a propensity for violence.


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Monte wrote:
First of all, what liberal "extremist" groups are actually violent? Seriously?

They don't have to be, by your standard. If you're going to drag in Hannity and O'Reilly as "lurking around the fringes of the case," it's preposterous to take issue with people noting that black on white violence has figures prominent in playing the race card and perpetuating the racial dialogue as an "us vs. them" thing like Jackson and Sharpton.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:18 pm 
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Ienan wrote:
Monte wrote:
So, seriously - name the violent liberal extremist groups? Just the eco terrorists? That's the only thing I can think of.

Umm, Weather Underground, Black Panthers, ELF, PETA, etc. etc. If we want to go outside the country, how about Stalin, Mao, and Castro's communist revolutions. There are extremist groups on both sides and some of them have a propensity for violence.


Technically Stalin, Mao, and Castro weren't extremist groups, as "extremist" implies being far outside the norm for that society and they definitely were not. But really, it's not hard to find dozens of violent communist groups operating in capitalist countries for the duration of the Cold War if you look. Hell, you could probably find that many in West Germany alone.


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Monte wrote:
Armed militia groups with clearly anti-American agendas are dangerous. I'm sorry if that offends some people to say so, but they are. Groups like this spawn tragedies like the Oklahoma City bombing. No, they are rarely directly involved, but they always seem to be there lurking about the case.


I hate to break it to you, but this is not a militia group. It offers no military training at all, and has no rank or military structure. As for "anti-american", I seem to recall you objecting to people putting this label on liberals.

Quote:
The guy who murdered liberals because they were liberals was directly inspired by right wing hate speech coming from mainstream authors and commentators like O'Reilly, Savage, and Hannity (among others). I can't imagine the paranoid delusions spewed by these guys would be more moderate.


I have no idea what guy you're talking about, or how you can possibly have actual evidence of any such connection.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 4:11 pm 
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Ienan wrote:
Umm, Weather Underground,


No longer exists.

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Black Panthers,


When was the last time the Black Panthers committed an actual act of violence? The two idiots outside the Ohio polling station were stupid, but they didn't actually assault any one.

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ELF, PETA,


PETA? Really. Yeah. Daaaaaaaaaangerous terrorists, those guys.

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etc. etc. If we want to go outside the country, how about Stalin, Mao, and Castro's communist revolutions. There are extremist groups on both sides and some of them have a propensity for violence.


Stalin, Mao, and Castro are not liberals in the terms that we are discussing. Conflating modern american liberalism with Castro, Stalinism, or Maoism is seriously insulting.

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Shelia Johnson seems to idolize Mao, so why wouldn't the example be valid? They are taking inspiration from these leaders, and thats their own words.

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