The Glade 4.0

Hellfire has been a shitty place ever since it was created. It was designed to be a cess pool, and people piss all over it. No other message board I frequent would allow half of the **** that allow in this forum. Hellfire was created as a compromise, in order to allow people to have spirited debate while keeping it isolated from the rest of the Glade. You people have taken this place from spirited debate to complete douchebaggery. Nobody even listens to each other here anymore. Everyone just posts their own ideas without listening to anyone other's viewpoints. If anyone dares to disagree with your Truth, then they're obviously wrong, or they don't have the insider information YOU know, or they're greedy bastards only interested in their own advancement, or they're ZOMG RACIST. You nitpick every little detail in anyone's post. You flame everyone, belittle their ideas, intimidate people into not posting, and drive people away from this forum. People post their thoughts like they had mental diarrhea. From the number of broken quote tags I've seen, it's obvious a lot of you post without bothering to preview your post and make sure it 1) is correctly formatted, 2) is coherent, or 3) says what you actually wanted it to say. If someone stumbled upon the Glade and judged it based on this forum, they'd think this forum was full of dicks. But, this place has always been like that, so nothing new there.

I can't speak for the previous moderation, but AFAIK, they generally avoided this forum and left it to its own devices. Some people thrived here and some people avoided it like the plague. When we created 4.0, Dash and I looked at this place and felt this was even worse than before. Maybe you were letting off steam because of all the downtime, I dunno. Maybe you all missed flaming Monte. Whatever the reason, we decided that neither Dash nor I wanted to deal with Hellfire, so we'd bring in a little outside help. The original idea was to have a moderator or 2 to deal with the extreme cases (read: Monte) and leave the rest of the forum to its own devices. However, once the moderators were appointed, they felt a more codified set of rules would be better. And so, the rules of posting were drafted.

The rules had a different effect than was anticipated. Instead of everyone obeying the rules and the forum becoming a little cleaner, people started abusing the rules. Whether using the rules as a line they could dance on the edge of to avoid prosecution, or using anything that was not specifically added as a rule as acceptable, or using the rules as a weapon against people they disagree with, the forum got worse rather than better. Sure, it had some up periods and down periods, but these periods coincided rather closely to when Monte was travelling and wasn't posting so often.

Then last week happened. Reports were on the upswing, and Dash made a post telling people to behave. People took his post, and like previously, started using it as a weapon to attack people they disagreed with. Reports went up even more than before, and the decision was finally made to give Monte a break, as he was the catalyst, if not the cause, of the majority of disruptions. This was seen as a sort of victory to the people who dislike Monte. If you provoke someone enough, generate enough reports related to him, then you CAN get the mods to do what you want. Then, on thursday, in a thread where people were already lining up for or against Beryllin, Aizle made a stupid thoughtless post, and **** hit the fan. LK threw a tantrum and people started lining up and taking sides. Things were getting worse and worse, and finally I had to step in. I've been avoiding dealing with moderating, even generally abstaining from the discussions in the moderator forums. But no, you guys went too far and I had to actually lock a thread. And then you tried to reopen the wounds by making more threads about the topic and I had to not only lock another thread but to tell the other moderators to lock threads about the topic. And you started reporting people, again using the rules as a weapon to try to punish the people you disagreed with.

You broke the cardinal rule of message boards: don't piss off the administration. I was content to lurk in the background, supporting the board by giving people custom titles and fixing the occasional code issue. But you pissed me off, and you kept pushing it even after you did that. I've heard multiple times that some people think locking Hellfire was patronizing and treating the Glade like little children. Well you know what? You are acting like little children. You're acting like spoiled brats who are so used to getting your own way whenever you want, that when someone says "No" you scream and whine. This is not a democracy. This is not Burger King. You can't have it your way. This is a message board full of adults and it is expected that you treat each other with a modicum of civility and maturity.

If it was my decision alone, I would lock Hellfire and keep it locked. If you are unable to deal with not having a forum where you can scream and insult and flame each other, then you are welcome to make your own spinoff board where you can decide your own rules or lack thereof. Dash decided to compromise. He decided to allow you to keep your cess pool while still providing a place where people can discuss the issues instead of bludgeoning people with your ideologies. And how do you react? You react the same way you've always done, by ***** and screaming and moaning.

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It seems to me that is how one would expect it to be.

If something hits the fan, then obviously you're going to have a lot of activity. And especially with this very opinionated group of people, you're going to get a LOT of feedback on something like what happened. Without changing the membership of the boards, I don't forsee that changing ever, regardless of what policies are in place.

One of the issues is that the mods need to decide which way they are going to go, and then stick with it. By that I mean, that you need to be very clear and consistent with the way in which things are handled, so that everyone becomes trained to the new status quo. And that means in the beginning a LOT of extra work. Potentially a lot of tweaked noses as well as you lay down the rules, and (this is the important part) uphold them consistently. Until such time as the mod team has the time and energy to do that, little will change.

All that said, I think DFK!'s comments when he was getting up to speed on the forum lock, etc. were spot on. We as a community need to understand that the mods are providing us a service to try and make the overall forums better. They are not professionals, likely don't have any official training, certainly aren't getting paid and above all are providing their time out of a desire to make things better. For that they deserve at least our respect, if not our agreement with their policies.

It's interesting. The single most popular (and really, only) graduate student/faculty discussion board (PhD Forums) has no moderation at all.

Things get out of hand, but they are always brought back under by the group itself. It's thrived for years discussing controversial topics with contributors spanning the globe, and yet it works out fine.

I think the problem is that even people that have relatively thin skins get drawn into hellfire because of the innate human interest in Drama- and then they get their feelings hurt and respond in kind.

Everyone says how horrible Hellfire is, but it has survived for years- quite a lot of years- with largely the same people still posting in it, and still interested in posting in it. You don't see that longevity in many forums, and I would say that speaks to the success of it in and of itself.

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Darksiege: You are not a god damned vulcan homie.

Would that be because real life professional reputations are on the line?

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Not in the slightest. In fact, everyone is careful to be as anonymous as possible, most even going so far as checking to see that combinations of facts they have given about themselves cannot be googled to find out who they are.

For the most part, unless you are a close colleague of someone there, and you know they post there, you probably will not be able to find out who they are professionally.

All you really know about someone is field, position, and country. Institutions are left out of it, for the vast majority, as well as specific research topics.

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Darksiege: You are not a god damned vulcan homie.

Mookhow posted a good summation. I think the only place we disagree is I like a place like hellfire for people to vent and feel free to express themselves, but he is right that so many of you here are big time crybabies. I've never really seen it on a forum to this degree. Moderation seemed to make it worse, not better. I do understand the other perspectives, and it may not be black and white, but lets say I fall on the side of this:



If you're laboring under the delusion that moderating is something I enjoy or am obliged to do, please purge that notion from your cranium post haste.

I like to post in Hellfire. I ignore the douchbaggery for the most part. I roll my eyes at 99% of the reports here so how can I moderate them? Other mods did a great job of cleaning up the reports so that was fine for the most part... then a week ago we had another incident. Everyone goes report happy. Everyone tells me it's all down to Monte, which was mostly true in that he was the subject or creator of almost every report. Monte was banned. Problem solved? No. Then we had the why was he banned arguments and after that people moved on to the next couple of targets. Finally this most recent event. So now, you're on your own. I'm giving you all choices, and getting out of the way. Which is all I ever wanted in the first place.

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“Strong people are harder to kill than weak people, and more useful in general”. - Mark Rippetoe

The fact that you roll your eyes at 99% of the reports was what, imo, made you a good moderator.

In my mind, the majority of the reports likely need to be /eyerolled, due to the fact that I read the forum every day and rarely see any serious issues. The moderation is there for those 1% of cases where something serious did happen, and something needed to be done.

By and large, I personally think the moderation has been successful- there has been quite a lot of telling people that they are reporting things they do not need to be reporting.

The only thing I would possibly add is a *short* suspension for over use of the report button- similar in end result to what RD suggested about limited reports.

Moderation gives the board some structure, but on a board full of consenting adults, no matter how much people act like babies, they should still be expected to take care of themselves, for the most part. At least in my opinion.

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Darksiege: You are not a god damned vulcan homie.

I think one of the things that finally broke the camel's back for me was when I got a PM reply from a mod who said, paraphrased, "I'm sorry that because of your thread two people have left the board." There are plenty of people who would say such a thing, but I'd expect better than this pettiness from a moderator. I, or course, changed the PM to "...because of Aizle's post in your thread..." and sent it back with a "Fixed for accuracy" tag.

I was an unhappy camper before. That thread worsened it, somewhere in there was the thread in which TheRiov proved to me how full of BS he is, and the Haiti thread was the last straw. *shrug*

I'm reminded of the Karate Kid.



If you're going to have mods, then mod.

If folks are abusing the rules, or crying wolf, then deal with them directly either through instruction, warnings or banning. And be transparant about it. Yes there will be a learning curve, but folks will either learn or leave/get booted. Long term, it's the only way for the admins to have any control over the outcome of the forum.

Interesting social commentary that plays to the arguments many make against strong governmental influence.

You're still trying to make it about the mods. Dont wait for mods to make things right. This is one of the big problems here.

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“Strong people are harder to kill than weak people, and more useful in general”. - Mark Rippetoe

One snide comment met, in return, with another. I am not your moderator in private and if you send me a private message, you're getting my private opinion.

Yeah, I was a little on edge that day. Probably had something to do with everything in that stupid thread happening and me getting 15 PM's before I was even awake for the day. Yeah, multiple threads were locked, and that's already been explained. At the end of the day, I just do what the owner of this site asks of me.

This:

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Holy shitsnacks!

It's about both really. I certainly don't wait for the mods on things. I don't believe that I've ever reported anyone, and no one forced me to post an apology to LadyKate and Nitefox. I agree that folks should try and govern themselves.

That said, it's patently obvious by taking the most cursory look around the world at the various organizations and governments, that human beings require some level of structure. That they need a final arbiter for various disagreements. That is the role of the Mod. It has been my experience, that the successful Mods are the ones who are consistent and transparent. Always uphold the rules, and be clear about it when you do have to punish someone. That way everyone else learns to anticipate the Mod's interpretation of the rules and you get the forums that you'd like.

It's also why Modding can take a lot of time/effort, especially when establishing those benchmarks. It's my opinion that those benchmarks were never completely made in Hellfire.

I have no problem with snide comments, but I at least expect accuracy. For you to try to tar me with the blame when it was Aizle's comment and Talya's defense that actually caused the issue is where I consider you out of line, esp since you hold a mod position on this board. LadyKate was not upset about my thread.

The problem is, you're essentially preaching to the choir. Anyone mature and reasonable enough to appreciate what you're saying and to moderate themselves is already doing it.

Yes, the fact that some people won't behave themselves unless a mod steps in is "a big problem". But it's a big problem that -- as past Glade history clearly demonstrates -- won't go away merely because we've publicly called attention to it and wagged our heads. It's a problem that goes away when the board -- through the mod staff -- decides that it's not going to allow it anymore. Or to put it frankly, if you want a kinder, gentler Glade, you're going to have to make it be that way.

I think there's been a lot of fence-sitting on the issue of moderation. I understand that. I think the fear is that if the Glade becomes strictly moderated, it will wind up pissing people off and someone might leave. That may very well be true. However, I'll just make the observation that people have gotten pissed off and left during every incarnation of the Glade, including its most "wild, wild west" phases. So really, it's just a question of which environment you prefer. I know I sound pessimistic, but it's just a pragmatic fact that you aren't going to make everyone happy.

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Sail forth! steer for the deep waters only!
Reckless, O soul, exploring, I with thee, and thou with me;
For we are bound where mariner has not yet dared to go,
And we will risk the ship, ourselves and all.

Your apology in the thread is what I was referencing - your acceptance that had you not created the thread, none of it would have happened. The notion that I tried to tar you with anything, I find laughable. I never took my comments public, you did. Don't try to play your victim card bullshit on this one, Bery.

Btw, I thought you were taking a break?

I am. I'm just kinda detailing why. It has nothing to do with being a victim. I am not a victim; I'm just disgusted with the loads of BS around here that came to a head recently. You were just a tiny part of that, a straw on a camels back.

The problem with this, as his been discussed in the other thread, is that for a long time anyone trying to 'make things right' themselves got slapped on the wrists by the mods.

Telling someone else to lighten up, to chill out, or any other such phrase was considered vigilante moderation.

It's not fair to expect people to fix/police the forums and work out differences themselves when they are punished for doing so.

I realize that rule no longer applies, but as Arathain demonstrated, a lot of people that WERE slapped on the wrist for doing so have not realized the change in moderation yet.

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Darksiege: You are not a god damned vulcan homie.

Relatively unmoderated is actually what we had until this lock, and yes, I see Heckfire as superfluous. In fact, worse than that, because unless I'm misunderstanding you, it sounds like any it's really more about preventing disagreement with the banhammer to keep the reports and PMs down and the feelings assuaged than it is about providing a format for reasonable discussion of controversial issues.

Realtively unmoderated doesn't mean completely unmoderated, and quite frankly, the people that want no moderation really just want to bully other people, poison the well, and hope that they'll be /ignored so they can have a platform to expound their ideas without anyone contradicting them. They're as bad for the forum as the overly sensitive because they really want the same thing - to have only the most mealy-mouthed disagreement with their position, if any.

I thought that things were going quite well, even with the 2 issues we had. Like I said, I understand there were things I wasn't privvy to, but really if people are overwhelming you with BS PMs and reports, make them stop. Ok there's no rule for it.. so what? Part of the problem with moderation is people who think the rules are some legal code and every prohibition has to be laid out precisely. That's both what leads people to use the rules as a weapon and leads them to ***** about every judgement call: if the mods don't do things my way they aren't doing them right! If you're getting bullshit in your inbox, start warning people for spamming.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

The mods here did a good job in keeping the place as clean as possible. DFK, Talya, Lenas and Michael all handled reports and discussed them in mod chat if needed. Frankly I clicked through and rolled my eyes. So if you want to ascribe the roll of mod to me that's what you're getting. When they asked for my take on an issue I gave it. I defended Monte for a long time but eventually relented thinking that giving him a time out would make things ok. It didnt, obviously. Even with their work, and I'll single out DFK! who was most conscientious about doing a good job of it although everyone pitched in certainly, there was still the same stuff in here every time I looked. The most obnoxious behavior was not moderated anyway. Reporting was done to and by people who had dissenting views as far as I could see.

Who am I to give you structure? Or Talya or DFK or anyone? Nobody will agree with us if they are the ones to get moderated. Nobody thinks they are wrong. There are no rules that everyone will sincerely agree with, and if there are we shouldnt need to write them down. In other sections it's much easier to police, the topics are low stress. Political, religious and social ... come on. I modded at a political forum, it is NON STOP WORK. Even then with a team of mods, the signal to noise is barely tolerable and it's mostly FU Hippie, STFU Wingnut or thinly veiled versions of that.

You're able to debate rationally, Aizle, from what I know. Others are too. Keep doing that. All I'm saying is if someone else is not, ignore them. Why is that so bad?

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“Strong people are harder to kill than weak people, and more useful in general”. - Mark Rippetoe

I agree, and that's a good thing.



No. I dont have to make anything, you do. Name a person who "won't behave themselves unless a mod steps". Now click their name, hit "Add Foe".



Back to total agreement.

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“Strong people are harder to kill than weak people, and more useful in general”. - Mark Rippetoe

Well dont presume to be citizen mod either. I mean it depends on the circumstance but 36 people constantly telling the same individual to change their tone or whatever... that doesnt help either sometimes. It just drags it out. What you and Arathain pointed out tho is another reason I am against moderation in this forum.

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“Strong people are harder to kill than weak people, and more useful in general”. - Mark Rippetoe

If you felt things were fine before and mostly unmoderated then I see no reason they shouldnt be now. As to who wants no moderation so they can bully and so forth, people have strongly held, different opinions. Let them "expound their ideas without anyone contradicting them", or if you prefer, contradict them every... single... time... without... fail... and make the same... exact... arguments, in excruciating detail... over and over.. and over... again! And I'll ignore you both! hah

Yes people will complain no matter what. Things were not going well.

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“Strong people are harder to kill than weak people, and more useful in general”. - Mark Rippetoe

Then stop crapping it out of your keyboard.

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Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
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