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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 3:26 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
Dude, you always write the longest posts saying absolutely nothing of substance about your own views or the subject at hand. It's truly impressive, in a "how to argue on the internet" kind of way.
And now we have an ad hominem as well as your continued refusal to defend your own positive assertions. Again, what are you doing to establish your credibility and discuss the topic at hand in good faith?

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 3:54 pm 
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Meh. This is a juvenile argument, so I'll bow out of it.

No, I didn't provide stats to back up the particular statement that immigrants (legal and illegal) commit crimes at a lower rate than Americans. It was a single line in the conversation, and it really doesn't have anything much to do with your question and my response regarding the history of Democrats and racial issues.

Yes, in this and other threads, I often rely on the common knowledge of other Gladers (and failing that, the ease of its availability online) because I'm not willing to invest the time necessary to compile sources for a forum discussion. Like I said, anyone who's interested can easily do some Googling on their own. I may or may not go back and do some of the same when I have time, but I just don't have any interest in doing that as part of a debate like I used to. Now, if you don't feel it's possible or enjoyable to have a conversation about a topic based on our own existing knowledge and opinions, without citing stats and primary sources back and forth as evidence, I can respect that, but I don't have any desire to participate in it.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 4:21 pm 
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From my experience, "common knowledge" suggests that Democrats pander to gullible minorities as a method to line their wallets as a result of their political machinations, Rod Blagojevich style.

Now, I don't have any sources, and it's just a line in the thread...

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 4:31 pm 
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*chuckle* Aye, and one I don't disagree with. I just don't think it's the whole story.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 4:38 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
*chuckle* Aye, and one I don't disagree with. I just don't think it's the whole story.

Exactly.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 6:15 pm 
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(This is from a pilot friend in Prescott, AZ that was there early June 2010, & what he saw 1st hand.................Very informative)
Good Morning All:
Last Thursday I was asked to fly Brady Beauchamp, a Republican candidate for US Congress (CD1 AZ) to Sierra Vista, AZ for a tour of the Arizona/Mexican border. I was invited to go on the tour and eagerly accepted. We spent 5 hours on the border fence. This tour was given by Border Patrol personnel at the "rubber meets the road" level, not higher headquarter staff or Public Information Officers level. There were certain tactical information they were not allowed to share for security reasons and we could not photograph Border Patrol Officers (BPO) for their personal safety. I tried to insert several photos in this email but it overloaded the computer which spent all day yesterday trying to send the email so I've had to redo this report without the photos. I'll send a second email with a few and reference them to this email. Hope this all works. There are media rumors that the BP is sitting back 50-60 miles from the border fence at road check points and not on the "line". This is ABSOLUTELY not the case. There are officers on the fence 24/7. The first line of defense, and best way to stop illegals is to catch them at the fence or within a mile after entering the US .
There are several (at least 6) fence types in just the 50 miles or so that we saw. Most fences are built with a 5' footing to discourage burrowing under the fence but the vertical part of the fences are all different, not a standard appearance, different shape metal, different spacing, different height. Some are vertical concrete filled steel posts, some are vertical columns with heavy wire mesh, and one style is solid steel plate put up by the National Guard some years ago using metal aircraft landing planking. Some fence styles are 10', some 12', some 15'. Each style fence was built by different contractors and there is nothing standard. ALL have some weaknesses, ALL were climbable or scalable using one technique or another...rope ladders, wooden ladders, etc. The BPOs like to be able to see through the fence so there are no surprises hiding on the other side. The cartels have even built big hydraulic operated truck ramps mounted on a big truck to lay hydraulic ramps up, over and down the American side so they can drive vehicles over the wall. Their favorite trick is to cut the fence with welding equipment and put hinges on the "door" they cut so it can be used frequently. They cleverly use clay or putty colored to match the steel members to hide the cuts so their doors won't be discovered and welded shut by us. The cartels operate with impunity on the Mexican side as the whole police and military force is paid off. It blew my mind to see blue flags waving in the breeze to mark the locations of blue 55 gal water barrels within a few yards of the fence (on the Mexican side) to show the illegals where to "top off" before assaulting the fence.
Every illegal who crosses is under the control and management of one of the drug cartels. They pay $1000-2000 each for the "service" the cartel provides in getting through the fence and to a "safe" destination. Family members are detained by the cartel in Mexico until the payment made in full by sending $ back to Mx. The BP is catching huge numbers of illegals but their effectiveness is limited by the number of agents available on the "line". No one goes along or without the cartel blessing. Groups run from 5 to 20 or more and are "guided" by a cartel employee who bolts at the first sing of trouble as they are usually also known criminals. One a "catch" is made the Officer takes them to headquarters for identifying, fingerprinting and paperwork. It sounds like there is about 25-30% of the Officers time is doing these administrative duties. Our hosts said if they had double the number of agents and about one "back office" staff for every 3 agents they could stop nearly every illegal. The men (I saw no female Officers) are VERY dedicated, concerned, serious red blooded Americans...every bit the commitment, dedication and focus of our military...except I think the military has better leadership and moral because of it. What would REALLY help the cause would be to build a double fence, of standard design, parallel to the current fence and about 50-75' apart and focus patrol in between. I suggested land mines and snipers stationed periodically but that didn't sell. One of the better techniques they use is to drag tires behind their trucks next to the border fence to create a smooth trail in the dirt/dust. They then drive slowly along "tracking" the dust areas to detect a crossing. Using radios and other agents, they try to sandwich the intruders. They have other tactics and technological equipment in use which helps greatly but would not talk much about it. There is one piece of equipment we viewed but could not "see" that is a real "force multiplier". It's a truck mounted, 1 million dollar system that can track humans a long way off. With several more of those the job would get more effective quickly. Every time the US changes tactics so do the cartels--it's a real cat and mouse game. The BPO like having the drones but say they are not nearly as effective as helicopters for finding and staying over a group of illegals until ground personnel and capture them...they want lots more copters..
Then we came to the San Pedros river. The fence stops. The environmentalists will not allow a permanent fence to be built across the river (seasonally active stream and not the day we were there) because it's a riparian estuary and environmentally sensitive. That area had been real active recently according to the BPO standing watch there. As we drove up he had been watching a Mx spotter in the cottonwood trees across the border. He anticipated a group coming through any time now. In that area the "fence" is some large X beams welded in 15' sections that my Toyota could drag out of the way. A couple mile from there and going up the foothills for the mountains in that area, the fence quit....yes I said quit. That is US Forest Service land and "you can't build your darned fence on our ground". That is possible going to change but still there is no fence there and the mountains are a "main highway" for drug entering our country. As Pogo (cartoon character from many years ago) said "I have seen the enemy and he is us". It is freaking unbelievable!!
This section of the border is divided into sectors of about 20-30 miles each. The BP estimates that about 100 illegals try to cross every day and 500 each night in each sector. Their personal estimates for illegal population in the US is 35-40 million, not the politically correct number the politicians and media use of 10-12 million. From interview and experience with the illegals they say those entering do not wish to assimilate into our way of life. They are Mexican and only want to be Mexican. It reminds me of what we saw throughout Central and south American on our trip there. Every population center on that continent was being overrun by people migrating to the cities and overwhelming the infrastructure and economic support systems.
Sound a bit different than what you hear from Washington or the media? It is...but remember this is from the "troops on the line" not the beaurocrats or their willing accomplices, the media. I'll close with the impressions I gathered and have considered for a couple days. The trip was both incredible and incredulous. Once again our nation has put brave, loyal, dedicated defenders of our way of life in harms way and not given them the support, mentally or physically, to do the job and do it right. Under the present conditions it is "no win". The politicians and press do not have the intestinal fortitude to follow the will of the American people. The majority of Americans want our borders protected and politicians will NOT support getting it done. The current strategy reminds me , chillingly, of Viet Nam . I know I was there for two tours and flew 350 combat missions. We lack the political will, shun and don't support the troops, not doing what is right...all in the name of politics. Our President, our senators, our head of Homeland Security have never seen what I saw or talked to the real warriors on the line. Shame on them...Washington is too comfortable and/or they are too important to take the time....what a disgrace.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 7:32 pm 
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I personally think illegal immigration control has to be about damage control. You can't realistically solve the problem when you can't do anything to the illegals you capture. You're just deporting them so they can try again, they'll make it eventually. Unless you want to start lining them up and shooting them as they're caught there's not much else you can do, if you put them in prison you might as well just let them cross, the costs of imprisoning them are going to be a lot higher than the costs of just letting them stay here. Remember if they have a kid here it's actually unconstitutional to deport them, which makes the whole thing ten times worse.

Just require proof of legal residency to access any social services so at least you can be sure that everyone crossing the border at least wants to work. Ideally require it for medical care too, but that's murkier because someone unconscious in the emergency room can't exactly furnish any proof.

Remember that the US has a LOT of "sanctuary cities" where it is official policy not to enforce immigration laws or cooperate with federal authorities attempting to do so. That really casts doubt on whether illegals are a net negative when you've got so many cities voluntarily sheltering them at the highest level of their governments because they believe that the illegal immigrants are actually good for their cities.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:54 pm 
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Xequecal wrote:
. Remember if they have a kid here it's actually unconstitutional to deport them, which makes the whole thing ten times worse


You mean them the kid or them the adult? As I'm thinking the consitution says the child is a citizen (a statute i'm not comfortable ammending) and thus can't be forcibly removed from the country. I dont' remember reading anything about the parent cant be deported, but I really don't have time to look it up right now. There might be a federal law or precident where we don't/can't do that though.

As I said earlier I'm kind of partial to the idea of the parents either giving them up or he can go with the parents and retain his citizen ship until the parents can stay legally or he reaches the age of majority, and is welcome to come on his own.

As for damage control the best way to stop them from comming illegally isn't to build walls, but to make it unattractive.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 9:05 pm 
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See? The fall of the American dollar has been a cunning macro-plan to lower illegal immigration levels. :P


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 9:27 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 9:35 am 
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The governors in the border states should just call out the militia, IMO.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 9:46 am 
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Inadequate response. They can only operate on this side of the border, the border is much too long to patrol adequately. In a week cartel intelligence would have safe routes, bribes in place and the flow would continue with little impact.

The government needs to realize that the demise of the guest worker programs, a political move with little validity other than show and tell, is what caused the illegal immigration and increased drug flow.

The same people are still coming across, still looking for the jobs most Americans refuse to lower themselves to do (picking fruit and vegetables is grueling hard work for relatively low pay). Now, instead of coming and working under welcoming government auspices, they are drug mules and in financial bondage to the cartels.

Bring back the guest worker programs, admit the Mexican workers legally, and we will do more to stop the drug flow, violence, and illegal alien problems than any other solution can come up with.

But hey, we have a lot of unemployed Americans who won't do those jobs, it would be an insult to them to let foreigners who would be happy to do them in.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 9:50 am 
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Micheal wrote:
But hey, we have a lot of unemployed Americans who won't do those jobs, it would be an insult to them to let foreigners who would be happy to do them in.


If the supply of illegals were to dry up, you would find that the people who need those jobs performed would rather abruptly make the compensation for performing those jobs much more in line with what it would take to get Americans to do those jobs.

Americans won't do those jobs now because if they won't take minimum wage to do them, they won't get hired. An illegal can always be found to take the job for less.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:18 am 
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Micheal wrote:
The government needs to realize that the demise of the guest worker programs, a political move with little validity other than show and tell, is what caused the illegal immigration and increased drug flow.
Lack of enforcement is why there is a problem with illegals, and the drug flow is and can only be a result of demand, not the demise of some program.

There may be aspects of the problem that can be traced back to some policy or another, but it's obvious that enforcement (both immigration and drug) is the failing or there wouldn't be a problem.

Whether or not the two are related is arguable, but in my opinion they are.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:10 am 
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Micheal wrote:
The government needs to realize that the demise of the guest worker programs, a political move with little validity other than show and tell, is what caused the illegal immigration and increased drug flow.


How do you figure?

Illicit drug smuggling routes are a result of the drug war, or the "creation and existence" of a federal program, not the removal of one.

Failing to enforce employment law is the second problem: there's more work here for better pay, even if it is below minimum wage, than there is in central/south America.

Since neither of those are going to go away, and actual border security won't happen, you have two choices: allow your states to become warzones and don't have militia to protect the people, or allow your states to become warzones and have militia attempt to protect the people.

I know which I'd choose.

Micheal wrote:
But hey, we have a lot of unemployed Americans who won't do those jobs, it would be an insult to them to let foreigners who would be happy to do them in.


Do you have any evidence to support this besides your bias? I know plenty of people who'd love to do that work. Carpentry, plumbing, electrical, roofing, siding, painting, etc. are all done predominantly in my area by hispanic immigrant laborers. Farm-labor is a soft-target for people who don't want to argue the merits of actually enforcing the law, because you just point and go "nobody would actually do that work," undemonstrable because we don't have a "parallel America" functioning as our control environment in which we actually enforce the law.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:58 am 
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The argument that Michael referenced is usually based upon the disruption in the seasonal flow of workers with the increased scrutiny of the border. The claim is that when the border was more porous, day laborers/seasonal workers would move across the border for the manual labor jobs such as picking crops, then when the harvest season was over, take the money and return to the families in Mexico. The concentrated the majority of the illegal immigrants in the SW states. With the crack down, it became too difficult to move across the border a couple times each year to get those jobs, so they started staying. Once they got established, not wanting to be separated from their families, they would start bringing their families across as well, and moving away from the SW states.

True or not, I don't know, but its plausible.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 12:11 pm 
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Ladas wrote:
True or not, I don't know, but its plausible.

Many things are plausible, but lack of enforcement as the critical point of failure addresses the greater majority of those.

Whatever is happening is happening because the US is allowing it to happen. The difficulty of enforcement would be a poor excuse since there's not a lot of effort visible in that arena.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 12:38 pm 
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I am in no way supporting or even suggesting that is correct Taskiss. DFK asked for some clarification, and sense I have read those arguments before, I am just offering some background to Michael's comment.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 1:35 pm 
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Ladas wrote:
I am in no way supporting or even suggesting that is correct Taskiss. DFK asked for some clarification, and sense I have read those arguments before, I am just offering some background to Michael's comment.

I was speaking to the idea you presented, not to you per se

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 2:41 pm 
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Ladas wrote:
The argument that Michael referenced is usually based upon the disruption in the seasonal flow of workers with the increased scrutiny of the border. The claim is that when the border was more porous, day laborers/seasonal workers would move across the border for the manual labor jobs such as picking crops, then when the harvest season was over, take the money and return to the families in Mexico. The concentrated the majority of the illegal immigrants in the SW states. With the crack down, it became too difficult to move across the border a couple times each year to get those jobs, so they started staying. Once they got established, not wanting to be separated from their families, they would start bringing their families across as well, and moving away from the SW states.

True or not, I don't know, but its plausible.


Hmm, I appreciate the expanding background of the claim. At first it just seemed like a traditional liberal rallying cry: "this is happening because we nixed/deregulation/didn't do enough for X."

The logic is sound behind that claim. The underlying premise is flawed, but the subsequent thinking is sound.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 3:53 pm 
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So.. illegals come to the country, cost the healthcare industry, take jobs, cost the government money in continued upkeep and any criminal issues that arise...

There is a simple solution that would cost about $0.25 cents per incident.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 4:37 pm 
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If you wanna use a .25 maybe.

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