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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:26 am 
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Monte wrote:
You surely aren't arguing that the only reason private schools continue to exist is because of public voucher programs, programs that don't exist everywhere. Yet, private schools do.

Of course that isn't what I am arguing, because that isn't even close to what I wrote. You used an example that does not correlate, nor support, your position, and I was pointing that out. IF the voucher systems existed, then you could argue that private schools are actually competing with public schools, and vice versa, and use the success or failure of the competition as support for your position. As it is, there is no competition.

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We do, of course. But that doesn't invalidate the program itself. That being said, losses from the public option will be paid for by spending cuts. In other words, it is intended to have no net impact on our deficit.

Losses paid for by spending cuts... the same spending cuts that resulted in a 50% reduction in USPS delivery service, or the same spending cuts that are proposing another 17% reduction in service compounded with a 33% cost increase to the consumer over the last 10 years, and will still be insufficient to cover costs for the next fiscal year?

Do you understand why no one believes those claims, and why this was perhaps the most idiotic comparison the President could use to bolster his case?

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That's true. But that's not quite the same thing. There are no privatized DoD's operating in an exchange competing directly with the government DoD.

True, but the DOD is supposed to be operating on a competitive bid process in procurement, obstenably to save money and reduce costs, yet I think it is blatantly obvious to even the most casual observer how much politicians interfere with the process to direct money towards special interests.

You think it will be any different with any other government agency?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:40 am 
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Is this what Obama has in store for us?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -warn.html


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Patients in Health Service hospitals are far more likely to go hungry than criminals in jail, scientists warned yesterday.

They say frail and elderly patients do not get the help they need with meals, and nobody checks whether they get enough to eat.

Despite years of Government promises to tackle poor hospital nutrition, food still arrives cold, and patients often miss out because meal times clash with tests and operations.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:52 am 
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Seems to me that's a problem with the private hospitals.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:04 pm 
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I could be wrong Aizle, but I believe the NHS are all government hospitals, not private, so I don't understand your comment.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 1:21 pm 
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Ladas wrote:
I could be wrong Aizle, but I believe the NHS are all government hospitals, not private, so I don't understand your comment.



NHS is both a single payer and single provider system in most ways.


Basically, yes, all UK hospitals are funded, administered, and "run by" the government under the National Health Service.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 1:26 pm 
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Ladas wrote:
True, but the DOD is supposed to be operating on a competitive bid process in procurement, obstenably to save money and reduce costs, yet I think it is blatantly obvious to even the most casual observer how much politicians interfere with the process to direct money towards special interests.

You think it will be any different with any other government agency?


This is actually written into government procurement and contracting regulations, on which I just had a class. The DOD is required by regulation to favor small, minority, and female-owned buisnesses in awarding contracts.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:23 pm 
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http://newsbusters.org/blogs/terry-trip ... ases-costs


So much for "you can keep your own plan".

I thought the line at the end was hilarious.

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There is no word as to how racisist Towers Perrin is for doing such a survey.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:31 pm 
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Among the full survey group, employers expect they would respond to a pay-or-play mandate in the following ways:

37% of employers would provide company-sponsored health coverage that substantially exceeds the standard.
29% of employers would discontinue company-sponsored health coverage and pay the assessment if the per-employee costs of payments to the federal government were substantially lower than their current costs.
26% of employers would provide company-sponsored health coverage at the level of the minimum standard required.
Take note of that "minimum standard required". This could certainly result in a reduction of coverage for those fortunate enough not to have been kicked out of their plans altogether. You will be stretched to find this statement mentioned by the mainstream media unless accompanied by the phrase "according to racist right wing radicals".

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:38 pm 
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Nitefox, do you have a corroborating site to News Busters? They're pretty bad.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:16 pm 
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Monte wrote:
Nitefox, do you have a corroborating site to News Busters? They're pretty bad.



How about the original source for the survey, are they pretty bad?

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 10:11 pm 
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I don't know. No one linked them. I won't go with News Busters - I just don't trust them.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 10:24 pm 
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Lack of insurance linked to 45,000 American Deaths per year according to Harvard School of Medicine study.

45,000 deaths. That's ten times the number of soldiers lost in Iraq and Afghanistan (wars that have cost us 1 trillion dollars or more, mind you, more than any Health Care plan currently on the table). That's more than 10 times the number of people that died on 9-11. That's one person every 12 minutes. According to the article, that's more than we lose to drunk driving and homicide combined.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 10:48 pm 
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Monte wrote:
I don't know. No one linked them. I won't go with News Busters - I just don't trust them.



What's to trust? They don't make the news, they just link it and comment. You won't catch anything and you might learn some things you didn't know.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:17 pm 
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Monte wrote:
I don't know. No one linked them. I won't go with News Busters - I just don't trust them.


The linked article directly cited its source via hyperlink. As such, may I suggest you read a linked article before naysaying it?

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:20 pm 
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Having insurance linked to 98,000 deaths.

Institute for Healthcare Improvement wrote:
The IOM estimates that as many as 98,000 people die each year in US hospitals due to medical injuries.


If those people wouldn't have had healthcare coverage, they wouldn't have died of iatrogenic errors.

/snarkoff

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:23 pm 
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DFK! wrote:
Having insurance linked to 98,000 deaths.

Institute for Healthcare Improvement wrote:
The IOM estimates that as many as 98,000 people die each year in US hospitals due to medical injuries.


If those people wouldn't have had healthcare coverage, they wouldn't have died of iatrogenic errors.

/snarkoff



Clearly, having insurance kills people. Obama wants people to die!

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 12:24 am 
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Nitefox wrote:
Monte wrote:
I don't know. No one linked them. I won't go with News Busters - I just don't trust them.



What's to trust? They don't make the news, they just link it and comment. You won't catch anything and you might learn some things you didn't know.


It's their commentary, and the source of their "news" I question.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 7:24 am 
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Monte wrote:
It's their commentary, and the source of their "news" I question.


Their source is hyperlinked. What about that source causes you to question it?

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 8:31 am 
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Monte wrote:
Nitefox wrote:
Monte wrote:
I don't know. No one linked them. I won't go with News Busters - I just don't trust them.



What's to trust? They don't make the news, they just link it and comment. You won't catch anything and you might learn some things you didn't know.


It's their commentary, and the source of their "news" I question.



The comments yes, ignore them. The source is nothing more than a hyperlink to the thing they are talking about. Try again.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 11:03 am 
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Monte wrote:
Lack of insurance linked to 45,000 American Deaths per year according to Harvard School of Medicine study.

45,000 deaths. That's ten times the number of soldiers lost in Iraq and Afghanistan (wars that have cost us 1 trillion dollars or more, mind you, more than any Health Care plan currently on the table). That's more than 10 times the number of people that died on 9-11. That's one person every 12 minutes. According to the article, that's more than we lose to drunk driving and homicide combined.



Might want to check that whole Harvard thing...


http://newsbusters.org/blogs/brent-bake ... vard-study


Quote:
Neither she, nor reporter Jim Axelrod, noted that the report was really produced by Physicians for a National Health Program, “the only national physician organization in the United States dedicated exclusively to implementing a single-payer national health program.”


http://www.pnhp.org/

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 11:08 am 
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Ouch.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 12:28 pm 
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Newsbusters is biased!

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 2:37 pm 
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Actually, they said that up front. And it was said up front in the NPR story covering the data. Harvard, however, published the study. Do you have a specific objection to the study?

News Busters *is* biased.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 2:43 pm 
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Monte wrote:
Actually, they said that up front. And it was said up front in the NPR story covering the data. Harvard, however, published the study. Do you have a specific objection to the study?

News Busters *is* biased.


Just to make sure I understand your position... Reports from CATO and the Heritage Foundation are corporate shills because their funding source, but this group can sponsor a report and it gets no such label?

And is News Busters any more or less biased than FactCheck and MoveOn?


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 2:46 pm 
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Do you believe that there is a difference between a financial incentive and a political position?

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