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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:17 pm 
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No guns in the hands of the general population. Jeez do I have to spell everything out? The victims had no choice but to hide while those with the ability to project force on the same level as the aggressor moved to the location.

I am pretty sure that the people being shot at in the atrium could identify the gunmen because he was the one shooting at them. I'm not stating that they all should be armed nor that if armed they should move towards the conflict I am stating that they should have the option of having equivalent resistant force at their disposal should they come in contact with the aggressor.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 3:13 pm 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
No guns in the hands of the general population. Jeez do I have to spell everything out? The victims had no choice but to hide while those with the ability to project force on the same level as the aggressor moved to the location.


Exactly. In a secure area, that's how things should be handled. Guns in the hands of the "general populace" aren't needed for places like this. It isn't a movie theater where large numbers of unknown people are coming and going; it's a facility meant only for specifically authorized people to enter. You're not "spelling anything out"; you're just throwing around terms like "project force on the same level as the aggressor" as if they were arguments. Yes, they had to hide. For most of them, that worked out fairly well. If you think that allowing people to be armed in palces like this is going to reliably result in the gunman being rapidly killed with few or no other casualties, you're on **** crack.

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I am pretty sure that the people being shot at in the atrium could identify the gunmen because he was the one shooting at them. I'm not stating that they all should be armed nor that if armed they should move towards the conflict I am stating that they should have the option of having equivalent resistant force at their disposal should they come in contact with the aggressor.


I am pretty sure that if a lot of people had guns out after. I can be pretty sure of that, because I know what high-stress situations are actually like to be in. Your ideas in cases like this invariably revolve around an assumption of calm, rational response by untrained people. This is absurd. Some people might correctly identify the gunman because he shoots at them, but invariably, some people will see someone else with a gun and just start shooting because they're frightened and panicky. Security forces will be slowed, because they have to worry about getting shot at by scared people who are simply reacting, and because they can't be sure that someone who is A) not one of them and B) has a gun, is the gunman.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 3:36 pm 
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Except that the security system failed and its response was too slow to stop an amount of seriously dead. Thus the intended design has failed (both here and the prior base shooting). A failed design needs to change.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 3:49 pm 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
Except that the security system failed and its response was too slow to stop an amount of seriously dead. Thus the intended design has failed (both here and the prior base shooting). A failed design needs to change.


The response was not too slow; the response time was 7 minutes. The design has not, in fact, "failed" because total prevention of all attacks is impossible. No security measure is foolproof.

There is no reason to think allowing personnel assigned to the facility to carry weapons would seriously reduce casualties in any case. You are simply obsessed with the idea that any restriction on possession of weapons is a problem. You basically have no business having or expressing an opinion on this.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 3:58 pm 
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Stupid crap...

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Elmarnieh wrote:
Except that the security system failed and its response was too slow to stop an amount of seriously dead. Thus the intended design has failed (both here and the prior base shooting). A failed design needs to change.


In an office environment, it wouldn't take long to accrue a large number of fatalities... Also, several police officers were wounded. He got at least one weapon from them.

The initial reports were of multiple possible gunmen in uniform/fatigues. (I heard reports of 2-3.) How would security/police know who was one of the shooters, and someone just trying to help?

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Serienya wrote:
How would security/police know who was one of the shooters, and someone just trying to help?


When the gunman shoots back?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:26 am 
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The guy shooting at crowds of people is likely your guy. The people all huddled behind the guy guarding them with a rifle or sidearm is not likely.

This isn't hard.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:28 am 
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This strikes me as the ridiculously simplistic view of someone who's never actually been in situation even remotely like this, and has only watched video games & movies.

YMMV but I'll defer to the people who've actually been in a firefight.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:43 am 
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It can strike you any way you feel like it striking you. The fact that in various scenarios where there have been lawfully carring individuals on scene when security responds it is only through gross negligence that an armed lawful person was mistken and those instances are very rare.

The mall shooting had a person in plain clothes with a firearm out, Giffords had a man with a firearm out when police arrived. Lott found that from 1960-1992(ish I forget the scope of his report) that all shootings in public where 3 or more people were killed were specifically places where guns were already banned so it limits the data set. However from the data we have your fears are ungrounded.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:43 am 
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Here is an article on the specifics of the attack:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/201 ... story.html

Also, the shotgun was purchased on Sat.

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The issue isn't guns. The issue is mental health.

Another guy with mental health issues shoots up some people and gets shot. Why doesn't the news cover that angle in depth?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:08 am 
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Micheal wrote:
The issue isn't guns. The issue is mental health.

Another guy with mental health issues shoots up some people and gets shot. Why doesn't the news cover that angle in depth?


Because Video Games.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:14 am 
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Micheal wrote:
The issue isn't guns. The issue is mental health.

Another guy with mental health issues shoots up some people and gets shot. Why doesn't the news cover that angle in depth?


Oh totally. And the fact that he was able to retain his CAC despite multiple incidents in his past, including the one that led to his discharge.

(I actually don't have a problem with concealed carry. I've owned firearms in the past, and my dad & older brother still do. I'm just not sure if it would have helped in this case.)

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:48 am 
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The shooter in the Giffords case was disabled by hand-to-hand combat. The person with the gun out was essentially irrelevant. Moreover, the Giffords shooting took place in a public area where limiting firearms carry is neither useful nor legitimate. The risk of misidentification simply has to be accepted. Complaining about the data set is silly; mass shootings are so rare already that each one is essentially a case study on its own. They seem common only because they are spectacular, but statistically they are nearly meaningless.

The Navy yard, and similar circumstances (doesn't have to be a government facility; it could be a secure, but privately-owned area like a nuclear power plant) do not obey the same rules. These areas must be kept secure against the possibility of deliberate, planned attack as well as individual crazy people; in this particular case, the early report of 2-3 shooters made it seem this was exactly what was happening. Security forces need as few complications as possible in these sorts of places, and unknown numbers of armed workers are a serious complication.

Elmo is simply assuming, for no good reason, that armed individuals who are of unknown levels of training and practice to deal with a shooter, who have incomplete information about the situation, and who do not know who else might be armed, where they are, or what they are doing, would be effective in dealing with a shooter. In some cases, things might work out well, but in others, they will become additional victims - and sources of additional weapons or ammunition - to the shooter. In this case, he reportedly acquired at least 2 handguns from people he'd shot, and those were actual security personnel.

Elmo will, of course, try to pretend that private firearms owners are all enthusiasts with high levels of skill at shooting, but this is not always the case, and even if it were, it doesn't change the fact that firearms proficiency does not address the fact that there is a lot more to an active shooter situation than skill at shooting back. The tactial complexities of these situations are enormous; vastly more so than someone shooting in an open, publicly-accessible area like a mall. Communities of tactical experts have been arguing over the best methods for a good 15 years since Columbine, and there is not one right technique yet. That right technique, however, does not include half-baked internet nonsense about "just let people carry more gunz because 2nd amendment lol!" Save that argument for people going about their business in public, their home, or publicly-accessbile businesses like theaters and supermarkets, where it belongs.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:00 am 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
The guy shooting at crowds of people is likely your guy. The people all huddled behind the guy guarding them with a rifle or sidearm is not likely.

This isn't hard.


Yes, this is why blue-on-blue incidents never happen in combat. Target identification is never hard.

Oh....

Wait...


Spoiler:
In the Tarnak Farm incident of 18 April 2002, four Canadian soldiers were killed and eight others injured when U.S. Air National Guard Major Harry Schmidt, dropped a laser-guided 500 lb (230 kg) bomb from his F-16 jet fighter on the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry regiment which was conducting a night firing exercise near Kandahar. Schmidt was charged with negligent manslaughter, aggravated assault, and dereliction of duty. He was found guilty of the latter charge. During testimony Schmidt blamed the incident on his use of "go pills" (authorized mild stimulants), combined with the 'fog of war'.[84] The Canadian dead received US medals for "bravery", but no apology.
Pat Tillman, a former professional American football player, was shot and killed by American fire in 22 April 2004. An Army Special Operations Command investigation was conducted by Brigadier General Jones and the U.S. Department of Defense concluded that Pat Tillman's death was due to friendly fire aggravated by the intensity of the firefight. A more thorough investigation concluded that no hostile forces were involved in the firefight and that two allied groups fired on each other in confusion after a nearby explosive device was detonated.
On 6 April 2006, a British convoy in Afghanistan wounded 13 Afghan police officers and killed one, after calling in a US airstrike on what they thought was a Taliban attack.[85]
In Sangin Province, an RAF Harrier mistakenly strafed British troops missing the enemy by 200 metres during a firefight with the Taliban in 20 August 2006. This angered British Major James Loden of 3 PARA, who in a leaked email called the RAF, "Completely incompetent and utterly, utterly useless in protecting ground troops in Afghanistan".[86]
Canadian soldiers opened fire on a white pickup truck, about 25 kilometres west of Kandahar, killing an Afghan officer with 6 others injured in 26 August 2006.[87]
Operation Medusa (2006): 1 – Two U.S. A-10 Thunderbolts accidentally strafed NATO forces in southern Afghanistan, killing Canadian Private Mark Anthony Graham.
On 5 December 2006, an F/A-18C on a Close Air Support mission in Helmand Province, Afghanistan, mistakenly attacked a trench where British Royal Marines were dug-in during a 10-hour battle with Taliban fighters, killing one Royal Marine.[88]
Lance Corporal Matthew Ford, from Zulu Company of 45 Commando Royal Marines, died after receiving a gunshot wound in Afghanistan on 15 January 2007, which was later found to be due to friendly fire. The final inquest ruled he died from NATO rounds from a fellow Royal Marine's machine gun. The report added there was no "negligence" by the other Marine, who had made a "momentary error of judgment".[89][90]
Canadian troops mistakenly killed an Afghan National Police officer and a homeless beggar after their convoy was ambushed in Kandahar City.[91]
Of two helicopters called in to support operations by the British Grenadier Guards and Afghan National Army forces in Helmand, the British Westland WAH-64 Apache engaged enemy forces, while the accompanying American AH-64D Apache opened fire on the Grenadiers and Afghan troops.[92]
23 August 2007: A USAF F-15 called in to support British ground forces in Afghanistan dropped a bomb on those forces. Three privates of the 1st Battalion, the Royal Anglian Regiment, were killed and two others were severely injured. It was later revealed that the British forward air controller who called in the strike had not been issued a noise-cancelling headset, and while he supplied the correct target co-ordinates, in the confusion and stress of the battle incorrectly confirmed one wrong digit mistakenly repeated by the pilot, and the bomb landed on the British position 1000 metres away from the enemy.[93] The coroner at the soldiers' inquest stated that the incident was due to "flawed application of procedures" rather than individual errors or "recklessness".[94]
British soldiers in operations in Helmand Province, Afghanistan, fired Javelin anti-tank missiles at Danish soldiers from the Royal Life Guards, killing two.[95] It is also confirmed from Danish forces that the British fired a total of 6–8 Javelin missiles, over a 1½ hour period and only after the attack was completed did they realize that the missiles were British, based upon the fragments found after the incident.[96]
On 12 January 2008, two Dutch soldiers and two allied Afghan soldiers were shot dead by fellow Dutch soldiers in Uruzgan, Afghanistan.[97]
In the night on 14 January 2008 in Helmand Province, British troops saw some Afghans "conducting suspicious activities". Visibility was too bad for rifle-fire and they were too far away to call in mortar strikes. The squad decided to use a Javelin anti-tank missile they were carrying. British soldiers fired their missile on the nearby roof but the victims were their own Afghan army sentries. One Afghan soldier was killed.[98]
On 9 July 2008, nine British soldiers from the 2nd Battalion, The Parachute Regiment were injured after being fired upon by British Army Apache helicopter while on patrol in Afghanistan.[99]
A statement issued jointly by the American and the Afghan military commands said a contingent of Afghan police officers fired on United States forces on 10 December 2008 after the Americans had successfully overrun the hide-out, killing the suspected Taliban commander and detaining another man. The US forces after securing the hideout came under heavy small arms fire and explosive grenades from the Afghan Police forces. "Multiple attempts to deter the engagement were unsuccessful," and the US forces returned fire. Afghan police have stated that they came under fire first and that the initial firing on the US forces came from the building next to the police station. This has led the US forces to conclude that the Afghan police forces might have been compromised. Initial reports indicate that this was a tragic case of mistaken identity on both parts.[100]
Captain Tom Sawyer, aged 26, 29 Commando Regiment Royal Artillery, and Corporal Danny Winter, aged 28, Zulu Company 45 Commando Royal Marines, were killed by an explosion on 14 January 2009. Both men were taking part in a joint operation with a Danish Battle Group and the Afghan National Army in a location north east of Gereshk in central Helmand Province. The MoD subsequently confirmed that two men died from friendly fire when they were hit in error by a Javelin anti-tank missile from British troops.[101]
A British Military Police officer was shot dead by a fellow British soldier while on patrol.[102] It was reported that no charges are to be brought against a British army sniper who killed a British Military Policeman because he was allowed to open fire if he believed that his life was in danger.[103]
Lance Corporal Christopher Roney from 3rd Battalion The Rifles was shot and killed by a U.S. Apache helicopter during a firefight with the Taliban in December 2009. The incident happened when a firefight was going on between British soldiers of 3rd Battalion The Rifles and the insurgents in Sangin Province. Senior British officers were watching a drone’s grainy images of the fight from Camp Bastion, about 30 miles from the battle at Patrol Base Almas. The officers mistook the soldiers’ mud-walled compound for an enemy position and called down a U.S. Apache airstrike on the base. Roney was fatally shot in the head after a helicopter gunship opened fire on the base. He died later the next day after being taken to Camp Bastion. Eleven other British soldiers were wounded in the attack. The coroner criticised the British commanders for the fact Patrol Base Almas was not marked on military maps, for the 'unprofessional' use of grainy images and for insisting there were no friendly forces in the area to the Apache crew.[104]
German soldiers killed six Afghan soldiers in a friendly fire incident on their way to attack a group of Taliban. Afghan soldiers were traveling in support of other Afghan troops in the area. The German Patrol opened fire killing six.[105]
Sapper Mark Antony Smith, age 26, of the 36 Engineer Regiment, Royal Engineers, was killed by a smoke shell fired upon by British troops in Sangin Province, Afghanistan. The MoD is investigating his death and said a smoke shell, designed to provide cover for soldiers working on the ground, may have fallen short of its intended target.[106][107]
Friendly fire between ISAF and Pakistan on 26 November 2011. ISAF forces opened fire on Pakistani forces killing 24 Pakistani soldiers and causing a great diplomatic standoff between U.S.and Pakistan. ISAF forces argue they were there to hunt down militants at the AF-PAK border. Pakistan has stopped transit of goods through its territory to ISAF in Afghanistan because of the Incident. U.S. has to apologise to resume the transit route.
Two New Zealand soldiers were wounded by friendly fire from a 25mm gun mounted on an armored LAV during a 12 minute firefight with insurgents in Bamyan Province on 4 August 2012.[108][109]
A British female soldier and a Royal Marine was mistakenly killed by another British unit on patrol after her unit opened fire on an Afghan policeman assuming he was a Taliban insurgent. The British unit who killed a female soldier and a Royal Marine assumed they were under attack after the firing happened.[110]

Iraq War from 2003
File:Friendly Fire Iraq.ogg
Video of the 28 March 2003 friendly fire incident, showing errors of identification

In the Battle of Nasiriyah, an American force of Amphibious Assault Vehicles (AAVs) and infantry under intense enemy fire were misidentified as an Iraqi armored column by two U.S. Air Force A-10s who carried out bombing and strafing runs on them. One U.S. Marine was killed and 17 were wounded as a result.
A U.S. Patriot missile shot down a British Panavia Tornado GR.4A of No. 13 Squadron RAF, killing the pilot and navigator. Investigations showed that the Tornado's Identification friend or foe indicator had malfunctioned and hence it was not identified as a friendly aircraft.[111][112]
Sgt Steven Roberts, a tank commander of the 2nd Royal Tank Regiment, was killed when a fellow British soldier manning a tank-mounted machine gun mistakenly fired at him while trying to shoot a wielding Iraqi protester at a roadblock at Az Zubayr near Basra on 24 March 2003.[113] It was reported that no British soldiers were to be charged for his death.[114]
A British Challenger 2 tank came under fire from another British tank in a nighttime firefight. The turret was blown off and two of the crewmembers were killed.[115][116]
190th Fighter Squadron/Blues and Royals friendly fire incident – 28 March 2003. A pair of American A-10s from the 190th attacked four British armoured reconnaissance vehicles of the Blues and Royals, killing L/CoH. Matty Hull and injuring five others.
British Royal Marine Christopher Maddison was killed when his river patrol boat was hit by missiles after being wrongly identified as an enemy vessel approaching a Royal Engineers checkpoint on the Al-Faw Peninsula, Iraq.[117]
US Patriot missile batteries fired two missiles on a US Navy F/A-18C Hornet 50 mi (80 km) from Karbala, Iraq.[118] One missile hit the aircraft of pilot Lieutenant Nathan Dennis White of VFA-195, Carrier Air Wing Five, killing him. This was the result of the missile design flaw in identifying hostile aircraft.[119]
American aircraft attacked a friendly Kurdish & U.S. Special Forces convoy, killing 15. BBC translator Kamaran Abdurazaq Muhamed was killed and BBC reporter Tom Giles and World Affairs Editor John Simpson were injured. The incident was filmed.[120]
Fusilier Kelan Turrington, of the 1st Battalion, Royal Regiment of Fusiliers, was killed by machine-gun fire from a British tank.[121]
American soldier Mario Lozano killed an Italian intelligence officer Nicola Calipari and is suspected of wounding Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena in Baghdad. Sgrena had been kidnapped and subsequently rescued by Calipari; however, it is claimed that the car they were escaping in failed to stop at an American checkpoint, and U.S. soldiers opened fire. This claim has been later denied by video proof that the car was respecting speed limits and proceeding with front lights turned on. The shooting commenced well before 50 meters, in contrast with what Lozano and other marines testified.[122]
During a raid on 16 July 2006 to apprehend a key terrorist leader and accomplice in a suburb of North Basra, Cpl John Cosby, of the Devonshire and Dorset Regiment, was killed by a 5.56 mm round from a British-issued SA80. It was ruled to be a case of friendly fire by the coroner. It was reported that the British forces who shot him were unclear about the rules of engagement.[123][124]
An American airstrike killed eight Kurdish Iraqi soldiers. Kurdish officials advised US helicopters hit the men who were guarding a branch of the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan (PUK) in Mosul. The US military said the attack was launched after soldiers identified armed men in a bunker near a building reportedly used for bomb-making, and that American troops called for the men to put down their weapons in Arabic and Kurdish before launching the strike.[125]
Dave Sharrett, II was shot and killed in a firefight with insurgents near the village of Bichigan, north of Baghdad in January 2008, during Operation Hood Harvest. The incident has since been described as friendly fire.[126]


Yeah, it "isn't hard" says the guy who thinks he knows what he's talking about because he's shot at paper targets on a range.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:03 am 
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And of course those are all examples of people specifically trained in friend-or-foe recognition, who know what their allies are likely to be wearing, (in most cases, uniforms), what weapons they're likely carrying, and even have people radioing them instructions.

I'm sure a bunch of untrained people with guns will be able to handle it better :roll:


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Yes. Not to mention various sensors and electronic aids.

I'm reminded of a quote from an F-15 pilot (not a a friendly fire incident) called in to support an isolated position surrounded by Taliban early in the war, when asked to attack Taliban near a specific tree on the ground -

"I'm moving at 550 miles an hour and you want me to pick out one tree?!?"

Being a trained professional does not immunize you to fear, stress, fog of war, or anything else. It gives you tools to manage them, but mistakes can and do and will happen, and unpredictability will make them more common.

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Diamondeye wrote:
Yes. Not to mention various sensors and electronic aids.

I'm reminded of a quote from an F-15 pilot (not a a friendly fire incident) called in to support an isolated position surrounded by Taliban early in the war, when asked to attack Taliban near a specific tree on the ground -

"I'm moving at 550 miles an hour and you want me to pick out one tree?!?"

Being a trained professional does not immunize you to fear, stress, fog of war, or anything else. It gives you tools to manage them, but mistakes can and do and will happen, and unpredictability will make them more common.


The key to security is clearly employing members of the Adeptus Astartes. They shall know no fear.

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That'd be fantastic, but I believe the genetic super-soldier program is suffering sequestration cutbacks.

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Diamondeye wrote:
That'd be fantastic, but I believe the genetic super-soldier program is suffering sequestration cutbacks.


*snerk*

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Diamondeye wrote:
That'd be fantastic, but I believe the genetic super-soldier program is suffering sequestration cutbacks.


On whose authority!?! Anticipate Inquisitorial inquiry!!

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Even the Holy Inquisition cannot overcome the power of the purse.

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Diamondeye wrote:
Even the Holy Inquisition cannot overcome the power of the purse.



Heresy!!!!

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine


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