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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:39 pm 
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Midgen wrote:
My assertion is, there is no reason (related to E911 or otherwise) to create that database, or to save it to your PC).

The "saving it to the pc" part is a function of the full backup of the mobile device. I see the reason for that even if you disagree.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:57 pm 
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I'm of the opinion, that if there was some legitimate use that was beneficial to the consumer, Apple would have gone public with that info by now...

So far all we have is Steve Jobs saying "The reports are false, and Android does it too!" (which isn't true).


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:03 pm 
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Taskiss wrote:
Midgen wrote:
My assertion is, there is no reason (related to E911 or otherwise) to create that database, or to save it to your PC).

The "saving it to the pc" part is a function of the full backup of the mobile device. I see the reason for that even if you disagree.


I fully understand that Apple wants that information on your phone. I'm just not clear why.

The reason it exists in the device backup is so that it will be restored to a replacement unit, or sync'd to your next upgrade.

They obviously don't want to lose the continuity.

Someone went to the trouble to create that database, with that data in it, and went to the additional trouble to make sure it was redundant and would be restored to all of your future devices. It's clear that it's important to someone somewhere. Unfortunately that someone isn't (apparently) the consumer....

NinjaEdit:
I'm not in the "The Sky Is Falling" camp. I don't even own a device that is affected. It may turn out that there is a perfectly legitimate use for this information (I honestly suspect they are making available for app developers, but I have nothing to back this up). I'm just really curious why they aren't coming forward with this information. It seems rather suspicious to me.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:06 pm 
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WSJ: Apple, Google Collect User Data


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:21 pm 
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Apple's location history is apparently patent pending, kind of shooting holes in the claim that it's a bug or not happening.

And now there's a lawsuit.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:54 pm 
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FarSky wrote:


The article didn't specify, but I'm pretty sure it's referring to the "Location Based Services", which is an opt-in feature on Android (and Apple I believe). When powering up an Android device for the fist time, you are presented with the opportunity to disable or enable Location Based Services. You can also enable and disable it as needed.

It is my understanding that the data in the iPhone database (consolidate.db) is even collected when your phone is off (as long as there is a battery installed). It's not related to GPS or WiFi location based services (apparently).


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 3:11 pm 
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Kaffis' link to the patent submission has some enlightening details.

As I suspected, the *stated* intention is to make this available to applications. How you feel about that is up to you. I am personally not comfortable that every application installed on my phone has access to that data. That means that it's not only available to apple, but to any application you install

I would be ok with this if it was an opt-in, turn on/off as needed service. The fact that its there, saving your location history for the lifetime of the service, without your knowledge is crazy.

From Kaffis' USPTO Link
USPTO wrote:
SUMMARY

[0004] A location aware mobile device can include a baseband processor for communicating with one or more communication networks, such as a cellular network or WiFi network. In some implementations, the baseband processor can collect network information over time. The network information can be converted to estimated position coordinates (e.g., latitude, longitude, altitude) of the location aware device. The position coordinates can be stored in a location history database on the location aware device or made accessible on a network. A user or application can query the location history database with a timestamp or other query to retrieve all or part of the location history for display in a map view. In some implementations, the size and "freshness" of the location history database can be managed by eliminating duplicate entries in the database and/or removing older entries. The location history can be used to construct a travel timeline for the location aware device. The travel timeline can be displayed in a map view or used by location aware applications running on the location aware device or on a network. In some implementations, an Application Programming Interface (API) can be used by an application to query the location history database.

[0005] In some implementations, the location history can allow users to tag photos or other content taken by a device and to synchronize the content with the location history using timestamps. This can allow the user to augment a travel timeline with the content, for example.

[0006] In some implementations, the network information can include transmitter identifiers (IDs). For example, Cell IDs can be tracked and recorded. The Cell IDs can be mapped to corresponding cell tower locations which can be used to provide estimated position coordinates of the location aware device. When a location history is requested by a user or application (e.g., through an API), the transmitter IDs can be translated to position coordinates of the location aware device which can be reverse geocoded to map locations for display on a map view or for other purposes. In other implementations, the network information can include WiFi scan data (e.g., access point IDs) which can be used to determine position coordinates of the location aware device, which can be reverse geocoded for display on a map view. In some implementations, the network information can be sent to a network server, which can translate the network information into position coordinates, which can be returned to the location aware device for processing by a location aware application.

[0007] In some implementations, other information related to various events can be recorded by the location aware device and associated with the location history. The other information can be displayed or otherwise made accessible to a user in a map view or other application. The other information and location history can be part of a personal "journal" for the user, which can be queried at a later time.


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 3:55 pm 
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Midgen wrote:
FarSky wrote:


The article didn't specify, but I'm pretty sure it's referring to the "Location Based Services", which is an opt-in feature on Android (and Apple I believe). When powering up an Android device for the fist time, you are presented with the opportunity to disable or enable Location Based Services. You can also enable and disable it as needed.

It is my understanding that the data in the iPhone database (consolidate.db) is even collected when your phone is off (as long as there is a battery installed). It's not related to GPS or WiFi location based services (apparently).


Vindicarre wrote:

IPhone Stored Location in Test Even if Disabled

Quote:
Apple Inc.'s iPhone is collecting and storing location information even when location services are turned off, according to a test conducted by The Wall Street Journal.
The location data appear to be collected using cellphone towers and Wi-Fi access points near a user's phone and don't appear to be transmitted back to Apple. Apple didn't immediately respond to a request for comment.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:16 pm 
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There was enough sketchy information in that WSJ article, that I'm not comfortable making definitive statements based on it's contents.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:59 pm 
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Yeah, I saw it as more of a corollary to the one written 3 days earlier.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:34 am 
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apple wrote:
Why is my iPhone logging my location?

The iPhone is not logging your location. Rather, it’s maintaining a database of Wi-Fi hotspots and cell towers around your current location, some of which may be located more than one hundred miles away from your iPhone, to help your iPhone rapidly and accurately calculate its location when requested. Calculating a phone’s location using just GPS satellite data can take up to several minutes. iPhone can reduce this time to just a few seconds by using Wi-Fi hotspot and cell tower data to quickly find GPS satellites, and even triangulate its location using just Wi-Fi hotspot and cell tower data when GPS is not available (such as indoors or in basements). These calculations are performed live on the iPhone using a crowd-sourced database of Wi-Fi hotspot and cell tower data that is generated by tens of millions of iPhones sending the geo-tagged locations of nearby Wi-Fi hotspots and cell towers in an anonymous and encrypted form to Apple.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:08 am 
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Oh, I see. So you're not logging my location via GPS. You're simply logging my location so you can log my location more quickly later.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:33 am 
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Funny, my Android phones register my location via GPS in a matter of seconds every time I turn on Google Nav (or any other GPS/Location app).

And this statement right here?

apple wrote:
iPhone can reduce this time to just a few seconds by using Wi-Fi hotspot and cell tower data to quickly find GPS satellites


Pure comedy gold...


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:42 am 
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Androids don't use aGPS?

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:43 am 
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Certainly not by storing my location for the lifetime of my device...


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:51 am 
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Midgen wrote:
Certainly not by storing my location for the lifetime of my device...

So, it does do it, just doesn't do as thorough a job of it.

Gotcha.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:53 am 
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Why would my location data from last year be of any use with aGPS?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:59 am 
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Midgen wrote:
Why would my location data from last year be of any use with aGPS?

Does 12 month old data present more of a challenge to your sensabilities than 1 month old data?

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:21 pm 
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Explain to me what about aGPS justifies apple keeping this (or any) history indefinitely without my knowledge or consent? Especially when I've opted out of Location Services?

I don't see how aGPS makes any difference. It's just another app service, and it's functionality is related to Location Services which I should have the ability to opt out of.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 1:08 pm 
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Apparently apple feels like some changes are in order.

More details at this link...
Link at ARSTechnica

ARSTechnica wrote:
Apple has finally commented on the iPhone and iPad location logging controversy that erupted last week, saying that a software update would be available soon. Apple provided a Q&A page with the answers to 10 questions about the situation (shown below), but noted that the company did not transfer any of the location data gathered by people's devices back to the company. The software update, expected to be available "sometime in the next few weeks," will reduce the size of the location database cached on the iPhone, will stop backing up the cache to people's computers, and will delete this cache entirely when Location Services is turned off.


more relevant bits...
ARSTechnica wrote:
6. People have identified up to a year’s worth of location data being stored on the iPhone. Why does my iPhone need so much data in order to assist it in finding my location today?

This data is not the iPhone’s location data—it is a subset (cache) of the crowd-sourced Wi-Fi hotspot and cell tower database which is downloaded from Apple into the iPhone to assist the iPhone in rapidly and accurately calculating location. The reason the iPhone stores so much data is a bug we uncovered and plan to fix shortly (see Software Update section below). We don’t think the iPhone needs to store more than seven days of this data.

7. When I turn off Location Services, why does my iPhone sometimes continue updating its Wi-Fi and cell tower data from Apple’s crowd-sourced database?

It shouldn’t. This is a bug, which we plan to fix shortly (see Software Update section below).


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 1:12 pm 
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Midgen wrote:
Explain to me what about aGPS justifies apple keeping this (or any) history indefinitely without my knowledge or consent? Especially when I've opted out of Location Services?

There are legal requirements to provide e911 location data whether or not you have selected the option allowing apps the ability to access location information (which is all that location services provides). aGPS seems perfectly justified for that use.

As far as how long to keep it, I am still unclear what your issue is with the duration of the data retention. Once there's enough ... and I'd just guess a couple of days worth is all that's needed, a workable profile can be determined for your probable location at any given time. Data from a year ago wouldn't seem to provide any significant degree of relevant granularity .

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 1:18 pm 
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Taskiss wrote:
There are legal requirements to provide e911 location data whether or not you have selected the option allowing apps the ability to access location information (which is all that location services provides).


We've covered this already. E911 provides location data in real time. There is no legal requirement (or justification) to store any history for E911 purposes.

Edit: Wireless Enhanced 911 identifies location for two reasons. To route the call to the correct 911 center, and to give dispatchers a general area where the call is originating from. It only comes into play for 911 calls, and does not utilize any history.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 1:28 pm 
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Midgen wrote:
Taskiss wrote:
There are legal requirements to provide e911 location data whether or not you have selected the option allowing apps the ability to access location information (which is all that location services provides).


We've covered this already. E911 provides location data in real time. There is no legal requirement (or justification) to store any history for E911 purposes.

Edit: Wireless Enhanced 911 identifies location for two reasons. To route the call to the correct 911 center, and to give dispatchers a general area where the call is originating from. It only comes into play for 911 calls, and does not utilize any history.


aGPS allows for quicker location determination than GPS alone. Seems that something designed for emergency response would benefit from that quality, especially since GPS info isn't always available.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:52 pm 
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Midgen wrote:
We've covered this already. E911 provides location data in real time. There is no legal requirement (or justification) to store any history for E911 purposes.


I have to respond to this one. I was simply trying to imply that e911 data needs to be collected so calls are possible, as in why it would log it even with location services disabled.

Storing it is a completely different thing than what I was trying to say.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:20 pm 
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Taskiss wrote:
aGPS allows for quicker location determination than GPS alone. Seems that something designed for emergency response would benefit from that quality, especially since GPS info isn't always available.


It seems that way to me too, but when the E911 specification was designed, smartphones didn't exist. Also, Federal Regulations require that 95% of handsets be covered. I have no idea what the numbers are, but I'm pretty sure that the percentage of all handsets equipped with GPS and WiFi is pretty is nowhere near 95%.

Maybe someday the Wireless E911 specification will be rewritten and take GPS, aGPS (or one of it's many iterations), WiFi, etc.. into consideration. For the time being these technologies have nothing to do with 911. Thus it is irrelevant to the points I have made in this thread.


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