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 Post subject: Re: Shooting at Ft. Hood
PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:11 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:42 pm 
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I'm waiting for the media to start giving air-time to sympathizers....


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 8:39 pm 
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Monte wrote:
Just a horrible tragedy. The guy apparently got moved from Walter Reid because he was underperforming and showing some signs of wigging out. Sigh.


This is what's known as a "rehabilitative transfer", and is common practice in the military. Usually it works too; the idea is to get the soldier out of the environemnt where people see him in terms of past problems.

Unfortunately, it didn't work in this case. Whether there was good reason to think it would work is not something I'm prepared to speculate on since the nature of his difficulties is unknown.

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 Post subject: Re: Shooting at Ft. Hood
PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:20 am 
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This is a segment of a very compelling article on it:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... pened.html

Quote:
1.30pm: According to eye-witnesses, Hasan - who had at first sat down as if to help soldiers with their paperwork - stands on a desk and shouts "Allahu Akhbar" ("God is great") before opening fire with the fn 5.7 inside the centre, spraying soldiers and civilian workers with bullets from the semi-automatic weapon, a favourite of Mexican drug gangs. Sgt Johnny Kallon, 30, a human resources specialist about to be deployed to Iraq, is among those nearby who hear the gunfire and makes an emergency 911 call from his mobile phone.

1.34-44: As Hasan fires off more than 100 rounds, mostly inside the centre, unarmed soldiers duck for cover, pulling others with them to safety. In a brief lull in the shooting, some believe - mistakenly - that Hasan is out of ammunition and make a break for it from the building. Private Marquest Smith, a 21-year-old father of two who had been completing his medical paperwork, is among them, dragging two wounded soldiers outside.

Then he goes back in, and sees Hasan with his guns. "He had his back turned to me," he told the New York Times. "And when I turned to run, that's when I started hearing rounds going past my body, hitting the wall."

Outside, a friend with a pickup truck yells at the wounded to get in, and drives them to a nearby casualty unit.

Meanwhile two civilian police officers who had been directing traffic on the base respond to the 911 call. Sgt Kim Munley, the mother of a three-year-old girl, and her colleague Sgt Mark Todd arrive as Hasan leaves the building, still firing. The officers chase him around it, exchanging shots. Then Hasan begins to fumble with his gun.

"He's reloading," someone screams. The two officers open fire, downing Hasan with four swift shots - at least two of them from Sgt Munley's 9-millimeter Beretta. She is also felled, by two bullets that struck each thigh and a further one that hits her wrist.

Soldiers tear off strips from their uniforms to treat the injured.


Medics taking part in a graduation ceremony in a nearby hall race to the scene, some still in caps and gowns. They encounter horrific scenes - trails of blood, the injured, the dead and dying.

Altogether, 12 soldiers and one civilian are dead or dying. Another 30 people are injured by gun shots. Soldiers who witnessed the killing spree described Hasan as calm and methodical, and the gunfire as continuous and well-aimed.

An Army officer said that he counted three full magazines of ammunition near Hasan's felled body and five or six empty ones.

Army medic Francisco Delaserna is among those who arrive on the scene where Sgt Munley is drifting in and out of consciousness because of blood loss. He applies a tourniquet and then moves on to treat Hasan, the man he had just seen gunning down his comrades. "He was very calm, pale but breathing steadily. It didn't look like anything was fazing him," he said.

Inside the building, amid slippery pools of blood, those slain include Francheska Velez, 21, of Chicago, who was pregnant and preparing to return home. She had recently returned from a tour of duty in Iraq.

Sgt Amy Krueger, 29, of Kiel, Wisconsin, joined the army after the terrorist attacks on September 11th 2001 and had arrived at Fort Hood two days earlier, on her way to Afghanistan.

Others killed include Private Michael Pearson, 21, from Chicago, who left his job with a furniture company to join the Army a year ago - and Michael Grant Cahill, a 62-year-old physician assistant, who was just back at work after a heart attack two weeks ago.

In the chaos, Hasan is initially reported to have been killed - as is the as-yet unnamed police officer (Sgt Munley) who heroically halted his rampage. In the end both he and Sgt Munley survive, after being treated at the scene by the same medic - Specialist Delaserna .

Hasan and three of his badly injured victims are swiftly evacuated by helicopter to a civilian hospital in the town of Temple.

Other victims are loaded into cars and rushed to the nearby Darnell medical centre, where Hasan worked, for treatment. "It was just like being back in Iraq," said Sgt Howard Appleby, who was at the centre being treated for post-traumatic stress.

Some injured called their loved ones on mobile phones to let them know they were wounded but alive.

For most of the afternoon, the world's largest military base - home to about 70,000 troops, relatives and support staff - remains in lockdown as helicopters buzz overhead.

3.30pm: FBI officers arrive at Hasan's apartment, remove his few remaining possessions and question neighbours. They have already retrieved his handguns from the scene of the massacre and his car from its parking space.

Shortly after 7pm: the sirens sound again. "Declared emergency no longer exists" says a woman's voice over loudspeakers across the base. The lockdown is over.

10pm: Base commander Lt Gen Robert Cone reveals that Hasan and Sgt Munley are both alive after all. Hasan is on a ventilator under military guard in a nearby hospital.


And then there is this, from the woman who was able to bring him down and got shot 3 times herself in doing so:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... -died.html

Quote:
Fort Hood shooting: policewoman Kim Munley awoke from surgery and asked if anybody died.

After regaining consciousness the first words of policewoman Kim Munley, who shot the Fort Hood gunman Major Nidal Malik Hasan, were "Did anybody die?"

Sergeant Munley, 34, was unconscious after being shot three times by Hasan and was rushed to hospital after she lost so much blood doctors thought she would die.

She was shot twice in the left thigh and once in the wrist but still managed to bring Malik down with four shots of her own.

Dr Kelly Matlock, who treated Munley in hospital, said: "She opened her eyes and said, 'Did anybody die?' That's what she said." Sgt Munley has now been told that Hasan killed 13 people and wounded 38 but her actions saved the lives of many others.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 9:07 am 
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I consider it an injustice they will likely prosecute him via civilian courts to avoid the potential of the death penalty under the Military code, which this man deserves.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 9:25 am 
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I don't know of any provision of military justice that allows them to do that, or why it would be at all likely if they could.

This is Texas after all. You're a lot more likely to be executed for murder in Texas than in the military.

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 Post subject: Re: Shooting at Ft. Hood
PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 9:29 am 
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And the hits just keep on comin:

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/fort-hood ... id=9030873

Quote:
Officials: U.S. Aware of Hasan Efforts to Contact al Qaeda
Army Major in Fort Hood Massacre Used 'Electronic Means' to Connect with Terrorists
By RICHARD ESPOSITO, MATTHEW COLE and BRIAN ROSS
Nov. 9, 2009

U.S. intelligence agencies were aware months ago that Army Major Nidal Hasan was attempting to make contact with people associated with al Qaeda, two American officials briefed on classified material in the case told ABC News.


It is not known whether the intelligence agencies informed the Army that one of its officers was seeking to connect with suspected al Qaeda figures, the officials said.

One senior lawmaker said the CIA had, so far, refused to brief the intelligence committees on what, if any, knowledge they had about Hasan's efforts.

CIA director Leon Panetta and the Director of National Intelligence, Dennis Blair, have been asked by Congress "to preserve" all documents and intelligence files that relate to Hasan, according to the lawmaker.

On Sunday, Senator Joseph Lieberman (D-CT) called for an investigation into whether the Army missed signs as to whether Hasan was an Islamic extremist.

"If Hasan was showing signs, saying to people that he had become an Islamist extremist, the U.S. Army has to have a zero tolerance," Lieberman told Fox News Sunday.
Related
'Cop Killer' Gun Used In Ft. Hood Shooting, Officials Said
WATCH: What Turned Major Into Alleged Killer?
More from Brian Ross and the Investigative Team

Investigators want to know if Hasan maintained contact with a radical mosque leader from Virginia, Anwar al Awlaki, who now lives in Yemen and runs a web site that promotes jihad around the world against the U.S.

In a blog posting early Monday titled "Nidal Hassan Did the Right Thing," Awlaki calls Hassan a "hero" and a "man of conscience who could not bear living the contradiction of being a Muslim and serving in an army that is fighting against his own people."

According to his site, Awlaki served as an imam in Denver, San Diego and Falls Church, Virginia.

The Telegraph of London reported that Awlaki had made contact with two of the 9/11 hijackers when he was in San Diego.

He denied any knowledge of the hijacking plot and was never charged with any crime. After an intensive investigation by the FBI, Awlaki moved to Yemen.

People who knew or worked with Hasan say he seemed to have gradually become more radical in his disapproval of the war in Iraq and Afghanistan.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 10:52 am 
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It's pretty sad, to me, that the CIA has to be asked to not destroy evidence of its failure to act on or share intelligence it had.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 10:54 am 
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 11:36 am 
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So we've got +10% unemployment, still shedding jobs, massive governement intrustion into our private lives, and now a terrorist attack on US soil.

WTG Barry. They are twisting every angle to not report this as domestic terrorism. Yet Tim McVey still is called one.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 11:39 am 
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How exactly are you thinking that Obama has anything to do with this issue?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 11:45 am 
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He promised a safer US, that unemployment would not go above 10% if we hastily passed the stimulus package, and a more transparent government. Fail, fail and epic fail. He made himself responsible.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:01 pm 
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ok, thanks for the response.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:10 pm 
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I dont fault Obama for this one at all.

The questions I have is why was this not addressed, and is the answer political correctness over his religion?

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 Post subject: Re: Shooting at Ft. Hood
PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:27 pm 
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That's probably a part of it, though I might find it hard to fault people for it. Hindsight is 20/20.

I wonder how much was really known by individuals in the first place. We have now the benefit of having the country's eye turned on this guy's life, digging up everything, but did anyone have something close to all this information beforehand?

If I only had met him in passing and heard some grumbling about an American war on Islam or something, I wouldn't have gone to authorities or his superior about it. Maybe that's political correctness at work or maybe not.

If I knew he has been doing it for years, that it has been getting worse, that he was becoming more and more disaffected with the military from numerous slights on his religion from within, that he was posting stuff on the internet glorifying suicide bombings... well now that suddenly paints a different picture. If someone had this complete a picture and was scared away from action due to PC concerns, then that could spark quite a debate in this country. I imagine it already has to some degree (I can already hear 'no muslims in the military!', at least in the here and now when radical muslims are our military's enemy) but if there's ever some revelation of concrete political correctness leaving this guy alone, it would add a whole new level to things.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:28 pm 
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Hannibal wrote:
He promised a safer US, that unemployment would not go above 10% if we hastily passed the stimulus package, and a more transparent government. Fail, fail and epic fail. He made himself responsible.


As much as I disliek Obama's policies in general, trying to tie him to this is pretty absurd. "A safer U.S." doesn't mean there will never be a terrorist attack. It's also not possible for him to micromanage the flow of information that could have prevented this.

At this point I'm still not entirely convinced this is terrorism per se anyhow although the evidence is rapidly heading in that direction. I'm waiting for details to solidify a little more.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:34 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Hannibal wrote:
He promised a safer US, that unemployment would not go above 10% if we hastily passed the stimulus package, and a more transparent government. Fail, fail and epic fail. He made himself responsible.


As much as I disliek Obama's policies in general, trying to tie him to this is pretty absurd. "A safer U.S." doesn't mean there will never be a terrorist attack. It's also not possible for him to micromanage the flow of information that could have prevented this.

At this point I'm still not entirely convinced this is terrorism per se anyhow although the evidence is rapidly heading in that direction. I'm waiting for details to solidify a little more.


I'm holding people to the same level of accountability that past administrations have been held too. I find it laughable that some talk show host are going off about how this is or isn't Obamas "My little goat" moment. Again, I'm only saying that Obama has tied himself to this by his little pissing contest with Dick Cheney. Obama was in such a hurry to be "Not Bush" in vague terms that he's now alienated himself from any good things GW did.

It's another example of how often and completely politicians misspeak. We seem to be caught up in a cycle of perception vs substance.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:45 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
At this point I'm still not entirely convinced this is terrorism per se anyhow although the evidence is rapidly heading in that direction. I'm waiting for details to solidify a little more.


This is another interesting point this whole issue has brought to the forefront. I see people largely leaning towards two options: 1) innocent guy snaps and turns very not innocent or 2) al'Qaeda OMG

The more we find out, I don't like either option. Maybe I'm wrong, and I'm sure we'll find out more in the future, but the impression I'm getting is something like an Islam-flavored McVeigh. Definitely domestic, but influenced indirectly by the more traditional sort of terrorism we're used to abroad. My guess is the guy had some seeds of disaffection to begin with, probably felt betrayed and disillusioned by the country he worked for, bought into the whole "war on Islam" thing. Some mesh of option 1 with an indirect version of option 2. Definitely not one or the other. Terrorism can come in many forms, and I don't think we should only think of it as the country (world?) largely does now.

The irony is if I'm right, the guy did probably the worst thing possible to improve the state of the world as it relates to his important issues. This will only increase hatred/suspicion/etc of Muslims in the US military and certainly won't help the US back off its efforts against radical Islam. Then again, I suppose you can't call anyone who does something like this balanced and reasoned...

I'm eager to hear what he will have to say once he recovers, if we'll even get anything that isn't heavily filtered through attorneys.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:55 pm 
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Hannibal wrote:
["My little goat" moment.


Huh? :?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:57 pm 
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Aegnor wrote:
Hannibal wrote:
["My little goat" moment.


Huh? :?


"My Pet Goat"

The book Bush was reading when the planes crashed into the towers. Which he didn't immediately drop, tear his shirt off to reveal a stylized "B" on his chest and fly off immediately to save the day.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 1:10 pm 
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Ah sorry, fuzzy memory on the book. Hell I'm still trying to figure out the definition of "is"... ;)

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 1:53 pm 
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Oh yeah, that. Stupidest criticism ever.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 1:59 pm 
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I say we put shock collars on all politicians. When their approval rating drops below a certian % they get shocks on the hour until it's fixed. If they try to take off the collar, it explodes ala Running Man.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 2:19 pm 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
It's pretty sad, to me, that the CIA has to be asked to not destroy evidence of its failure to act on or share intelligence it had.


Without more facts on that part of the article, I'd say it's just more of Congress's slanderous posturing vis. the CIA. Remember, Nancy Pelosi publicly accused them of lying to Congress several months ago and was never called on it.

People always need a scapegoat for an event like this, and the CIA is convenient. Tear them down now so you can advocate reform of the agency later.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 2:49 pm 
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Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that the CIA was likely to do so. The mere act of asking, though, speaks of the distrust that I was bemoaning.

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