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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 10:27 pm 
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adorabalicious
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As I've already stated, then the law those elected swore to uphold is ignored by those the contract is breached via fraud. They no longer represent us when they do things we have given them no authority to do.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 10:37 pm 
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Your problem is that they are not representing *you* and what *you* feel they should be doing in terms of what *you* feel constitutes the Way Things Ought To Be. And the worst part is, you are essentially advocating murder as a response to losing an election.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 10:42 pm 
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No Monte, they aren't following the law and it happens on both sides of the aisle.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 11:02 pm 
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No, they aren't following the law in your opinion. But you are not a supreme court justice. You are not the justice department.

You are a voter. You get your vote. You do not get to on a murderous rampage when congress does something you don't think they should do. And if you do go on such a rampage, you are not a good and noble hero. You are not a revolutionary trying to re-establish the golden years of this country. You would be a murderer, a mad man, and rightfully reviled by a society that has come to learn that non violence in infinitely preferable to violence when it comes to bringing about social change.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 11:20 pm 
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I am a citizen Monte and I and we are all responsible for holding elected officials to the oath they have taken. My rights don't come from legislators and legislators cannot take them away. When those elected fail to protect my rights and instead act to infringe on them they are nothing more than thieves and I hold no duty to them as there is no longer a contract between us.

If it hasn't occurred to by now I don't care what you or others think of me so calling me names isn't an effective argumentative tactic.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 11:39 pm 
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Monte wrote:
Rafael wrote:
I know it's easy to demonize what Elmo has saying because it seems so far removed from the principles of our country, but remember this country was founded by a bunch of people who didn't want to pay taxes to a government that no longer served primarily for the protection of their rights and they were so opposed, they actually went to war for it.


They were not angry that they were paying taxes into a government that wasn't doing what they wanted. They were angry that they were paying taxes into a government in which they had no representation.



Entirely false.

Perhaps you should familiarize yourself more with the grievances of the colonists. Allow me to help:

Quote:
IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.


He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected, whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:


For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:


For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.


In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these united Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States, that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. — And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.

— John Hancock

New Hampshire:
Josiah Bartlett, William Whipple, Matthew Thornton

Massachusetts:
John Hancock, Samuel Adams, John Adams, Robert Treat Paine, Elbridge Gerry

Rhode Island:
Stephen Hopkins, William Ellery

Connecticut:
Roger Sherman, Samuel Huntington, William Williams, Oliver Wolcott

New York:
William Floyd, Philip Livingston, Francis Lewis, Lewis Morris

New Jersey:
Richard Stockton, John Witherspoon, Francis Hopkinson, John Hart, Abraham Clark

Pennsylvania:
Robert Morris, Benjamin Rush, Benjamin Franklin, John Morton, George Clymer, James Smith, George Taylor, James Wilson, George Ross

Delaware:
Caesar Rodney, George Read, Thomas McKean

Maryland:
Samuel Chase, William Paca, Thomas Stone, Charles Carroll of Carrollton

Virginia:
George Wythe, Richard Henry Lee, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Harrison, Thomas Nelson, Jr., Francis Lightfoot Lee, Carter Braxton

North Carolina:
William Hooper, Joseph Hewes, John Penn

South Carolina:
Edward Rutledge, Thomas Heyward, Jr., Thomas Lynch, Jr., Arthur Middleton

Georgia:
Button Gwinnett, Lyman Hall, George Walton


All underlined portions have absolutely NOTHING to do with representation.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 10:37 pm 
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Actually, each and every one of those things has to do with a lack of representation. Fundamentally, their objection was not just because of what was being done, but that they had no say in the matter.

Am I reading your tone wrong, though? It seems like you're angry.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 10:51 pm 
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Monte wrote:
Actually, each and every one of those things has to do with a lack of representation. Fundamentally, their objection was not just because of what was being done, but that they had no say in the matter.


Oh really, what they meant isn't what they wrote down on paper as the initiation document to the (at the time) most powerful military in the world?

Pray tell, how do you know that what they wrote down isn't what they really meant.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 12:42 am 
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Hes using the same idea that what words mean doesn't matter - its what you want them to mean that does. The courts use that reasoning all the time.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 9:54 am 
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Micheal wrote:
So you are threatening to murder generic elected officials, not specific ones?

Your revolution will be interesting to watch, if you ever have the brass to follow through with it. Personally, I hope you fall into the first category of the old axiom, "Them that talk about it, didn't do it. Them that did it, don''t talk about it."


Don't worry about it. Elmo almost certainly will never try to kill anyone, and even if he did, he's demonstrated in the past that he really isn't much for tactical reality. I seem to recall the "I can beat 3 cops and an IRS agent in a gunfight by pretending to be harmless!" thread. Damn I wish we hadn't lost that board.

In the great battle between Elmo and the government... bet on the government.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 6:50 pm 
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Quote:
I can beat 3 cops and an IRS agent in a gunfight by pretending to be harmless

maybe he'll do the same thing puss does in shrek. He does have the cute cuddly red muppet thing going for him.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 7:32 pm 
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Of course the fact that I don't ever recall making such a claim and that DE uses these kind of attacks all the time against me when he has no better argument we will just ignore eh?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 7:48 pm 
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Sho Nuff!

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 7:57 pm 
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"I must study politics and war that my sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy." - John Adams

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A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. ~ John Stuart Mill


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 7:58 pm 
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Sticks and stones. We will never have global agreement on this board (other wise I predict world apocalypse right after we do achieve it). In the mean time when we come to a stand still, we could simply discuss the possibility of such things on face value. I mean the idea of a cute little red muppet making puppy eyes while proceeding to beat up several corrupt cops and an IRS agent could totally make it into the movies.
"Elmo and the revenge of the government" coming to a cinema near you


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:09 pm 
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I'm actually not a red muppet.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:15 pm 
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you mean your old avatar lied! NO!!!
How will I ever believe anything I read on the internet again! (hehe =P)


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:15 pm 
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Awwww don't be sad.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:27 pm 
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No I can vouch for Elmo's muppet-ness. He may deny it, but it is true. He turn into a John Wayne mupped on vodka tho...

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A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. ~ John Stuart Mill


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:27 pm 
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Only after 12 shots though.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:28 pm 
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You do have the tolerence for the stuff. I'm a lightweight still.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:30 pm 
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*snuggles hannibal all up*

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 11:09 am 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
Of course the fact that I don't ever recall making such a claim and that DE uses these kind of attacks all the time against me when he has no better argument we will just ignore eh?


You did make such a claim, regardless fo whether you recall it or not. Specifically it was in a thread about cars being seized by the IRS in lieux of overdue tax payments. Specifically you claimed that you could kill the three cops and the IRS agent there to effect the seizure by looking frightened and submissive and then suddenly drawing your pistol and dropping all four fo them with head shots. I'd be perfectly happy to link it if we hadn't been throguh endless board meltdowns.

Anyhow, the argument is that you're tactically incompetant, and that even if you ever do find the balls to actually try something, you'll just get yourself killed because of your wild overestimation of your own abilities. It's really not surprising. You want very badly to believe that the citizens of this country are going to remove the government forcibly and replace it with one more to your liking, and any time the practical aspects of that actually happening come up, you just ignore tham and make wild claims.

I recall another thread in which you were claiming that the government of PA was going to impose martial law when people couldn't afford groceries. Aside from the fact that this evidently hasn't happened, you also claimed you were worried your father (a gentlemen in excess of 80 years old IIRC) would not be able to defend himself against that national guard hen they came to evacuate him.

The absurdity of you, a grown man, thinking that any individual, much less a senior citizen, could effectively defend a fixed position, and one not specifically designed for defense, against even a relatively inept military unit (which the PARNG is not) in any useful way, speaks volumes. Apparently you get your ideas about tactical reality from the movies, and while I enjoy Top Gun a great deal myself, a study in proper tactics it is not.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:03 pm 
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This is evidence that you do not know nor understand me in the least. You've created a fantasy about my person that you project on to me to sustain your belief.

You know nothing about my desires, motivations, concerns, or "predictions".

I don't care what your opinion on my tactical competence is but I can clearly see you haven't thought things out should there be a martial law situation.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:53 pm 
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Diamondeye, a couple reports have been made by a couple different people about a couple different posts having "external baggage" or carrying things from thread to thread, etc.

Please make sure you don't drag old items into this discussion.

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