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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:17 pm 
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Monte wrote:
You bow deeply to people of high rank.


Incorrect.

You bow deeply to people of higher rank.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:23 pm 
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Or older. Not so much with China or India, but def in Japan and Korea where age is an important factor.
If you did it in China you're essentially asking for money (red pockets) =P


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:26 pm 
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Monte wrote:
Guys, the days of cowboy diplomacy are gone. They were rejected in the last election. Humility is a good thing. We don't have to be dicks to be America.


That's as maybe. But we don't have to be doormats either.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:29 pm 
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DFK! wrote:
Monte wrote:
You bow deeply to people of high rank.


Incorrect.

You bow deeply to people of higher rank.


Meeting the emperor is a "very formal" situation. His bow is not out of place, and in no way shows subservience. You have incomplete information. My guess is that it comes from your martial arts experience.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:30 pm 
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Müs wrote:
Monte wrote:
Guys, the days of cowboy diplomacy are gone. They were rejected in the last election. Humility is a good thing. We don't have to be dicks to be America.


That's as maybe. But we don't have to be doormats either.


And he wasn't. Just because *you* think it looks that way doesn't mean it actually is what you claim. He went, and properly bowed.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:34 pm 
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Monte wrote:
DFK! wrote:
Monte wrote:
You bow deeply to people of high rank.


Incorrect.

You bow deeply to people of higher rank.


Meeting the emperor is a "very formal" situation. His bow is not out of place, and in no way shows subservience. You have incomplete information. My guess is that it comes from your martial arts experience.

Wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:37 pm 
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Monte wrote:
Meeting the emperor is a "very formal" situation. His bow is not out of place, and in no way shows subservience. You have incomplete information. My guess is that it comes from your martial arts experience.


You don't understand the asian culture very well I see. Things are only "very formal" if it's within the 'family' (Clan, distant relatives, relatives by marriage, students of the same masters, etc). Otherwise all outsiders are guests and treated with respect because most Asians would just die of shame if the guest was not treated with the up most respect while within their house. This is especially so where rank is concerned.

You are however right his bow is not out of place. It also doesn’t show subservience, but respect (especially since the dude is much older than him, thus is the Jap tradition.)


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:40 pm 
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Screeling, I am not incorrect. Seriously, this is much ado about nothing.

Lydiaa, it is expected that this sort of bow be given to an Emperor. Here's an editorial from someone with experience with the culture -

Quote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2009/nov/18/obama-japan-bow

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 Post subject: Re: Obama's Asian Tour
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:45 pm 
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Trying to extrapolate from secondhand knowledge of Japanese culture is kind of silly, IMO. This is a very specific circumstance here, and I don't think it's necessarily relevant to talk about things like colleagues in an office greeting one another or whatever. It's not worthless knowledge, certainly, but it's not the whole and final picture. Established precedent (like that video, but the video is clearly biased so I don't know how far to trust) is something to look towards, and I imagine one of the 89723423424 articles published on this actually comes from people intimately familiar with Japanese political protocol.

I think it's much ado about nothing, ultimately, but I rate "it's Japan, they bow there" just as uninformed as "presidents don't bow to anyone".

...though I'm pretty sure bowing while shaking hands is not part of any precedent. :p But I wouldn't mind awkward if his meaningful policies were good.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:47 pm 
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Shaking hands as creeped into the culture of bowing in Japan. Check it out on Wiki or the article I posted. Interaction with the West has altered custom somewhat.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:11 pm 
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Perhaps, as a gesture of our humility, we should offer up a strip of land to be annexed. It's just a gesture of respect!

I don't have a problem with our President bowing his head in a gesture of respect. I'd even be pleased to see him bow at the waist a few degrees in an Asian country.

Obama's **** parallel to the floor. That says something, and it's not "I am humble." It's "I am here for you to walk all over me and give you everything you want. I am your slave."

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:13 pm 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Perhaps, as a gesture of our humility, we should offer up a strip of land to be annexed. It's just a gesture of respect!


Are you honestly equating a perfectly reasonable and culturally acceptable gesture to giving up actual land? Really?


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Obama's **** parallel to the floor. That says something, and it's not "I am humble." It's "I am here for you to walk all over me and give you everything you want. I am your slave."


Your inability or unwillingness to understand the culture in question does not mean that the President was in error. It simply illustrates your ignorance.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:15 pm 
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Yes, Montegue. I resorted to hyperbole. Wow, you got me there. :rolleyes:

Monte wrote:
Lydiaa, it is expected that this sort of bow be given to an Emperor.

By a subject, perhaps. That's what has me pissed off. My president is not the Emperor's subject, no matter how respectful or humble he wants to be.

Montegue; I suppose all those other world leaders -- and their wives, and generals -- were utilizing American cowboy-style diplomacy?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:16 pm 
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Not just by a subject, Kaffis. By anyone. Anyone at all who meets him. Just like you bow to the Queen when you're in england, and just like how everyone is expected to stand up in America when the President enters the room.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:28 pm 
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Like all the other people in the video respectfully did, then.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:28 pm 
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Which was very kind of them. Looks to me like both sides of the meeting were offered their proper courtesies.

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 Post subject: Re: Obama's Asian Tour
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:34 pm 
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I have no problem with Obama acting subserviant to the Japanese. Maybe he should apologize for the U.S. winning WWII while he's at it. :)


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:35 pm 
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Monte wrote:
You bow deeply to people of high rank.


You bow lower than an elder bows to you. You do not come back to attention until your elder does.

However, this applies more to pre-Meiji Restoration. The resurgence of bowing as a cultural thing is sort of a reaction to the over-compensating during the Meiji Restoration and again during the "McCarthyism" period.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:48 pm 
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This guy isn't just an elder. He's the emperor. There are specific traditions related to the Emperor, just like the President.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:55 pm 
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Cool. Ask the Emperor to annotate those to you next time you guys are having tea.

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 Post subject: Re: Obama's Asian Tour
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 8:21 pm 
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The correct diplomatic gesture is to vomit all over him.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:27 pm 
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Hahahah winner

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 Post subject: Re: Obama's Asian Tour
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 2:34 am 
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Mookhow has about as much experience with this protocol as most people here do, so... why not. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Obama's Asian Tour
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:04 am 
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ABC News Blog

And they mention a picture of President Nixon performing the bow properly...
Spoiler:
Image


Obama's bow was too low. In bowing that low he displayed subservience and obedience that one would show their lord, not what a foreign dignitary should display.

My issue is not that he bowed, but that he essentially gave the "Your highness... if you believe me to be your enemy, command me, and I will gladly take my life"

PS- I currently have a message out to a Japanese friend of mine in Japan trying to find out the 'rightness' of the bow and posture during the bow.

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 Post subject: Re: Obama's Asian Tour
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:28 am 
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Yay, actual insight! That is exactly the kind of article I was hoping for in my earlier post. I am doubly pleased that it ends in a similar way as my post. :D


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