The Glade 4.0

Al Capone would be 113 years old this year, so it's unsurprising that he's not running whiskey either personally or as a manager. There is, however, still a market for foreign booze so the idea that there would be "zero business" for a legitimized Mexican marijuana farming operation is dubious, at best. I'll also point out that the end of prohibition hardly meant the end of the mafia or of organized crime.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

There is a market for foreign alcohol but it's not like there's a Moonshine Cartel making millions and chopping off heads if you decide to go Budweiser instead. Please explain how cartels would be able to compete with domestically legal growing and distribution of marijuana on any large scale. Speaking as someone that buys it with some regularity, I'd much rather walk to a corner convenience store or dispensary than deal with someone shady. Everyone would. That's the point. There are no alcohol cartels, there are no tobacco cartels. No one goes to an alley dealer to get a pack of cigarettes or booze.

Yes, the cartels would move on to other shady **** just like mobsters did after prohibition. I already said that. I'm not talking about an end to Mexican cartels, I'm talking about taking away one of their biggest cash crops and making their entire existence harder.

Also, your whole point about marijuana being "just as illegal" in Mexico isn't true. Mexico legalized personal amounts of drug possession in 2009, while distribution remains illegal. Our legalization of the plant wouldn't make any difference there.

That's exactly my point. If domestic production is legal, and imports are illegal, cartels can't compete. If both are legal however, cartels can compete the same way as Guiness competes with Budweiser.



So am I. I've clearly stated that at least twice now. In fact, it appears we agree on almost everything, so I don't know why you're arguing with me unless thius is just some sort of knee-jerk "argue with DE" reaction.



Which is irrelevant to the production or shipment of marijuana into this country. Thank you for catching the semantic loophole in my argument, however.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

I think the disconnect is the importing part. I'm running on the assumption that importing from countries where it's illegal to distribute (like Mexico) would not be allowed. That would leave cartels to selling on the streets like they currently do, which wouldn't be able to compete at all.

If alcohol were illegal to distribute in Ireland, would the USA allow them to import Guinness?

Similarly, if Guinness had to pay its employees higher wages because it's an illegal business with risk of incarceration inherent to employment, and it was also operating via the largesse bought by bribing authorities, would Guinness even be able to compete with Budweiser if we DID allow it to be imported?

Also, DE -- legalization isn't about solving Mexico's problems. Yes, the cartels would move onto other business. But it would be business that didn't have as big a market in the US, so it would remove the incentive to deal across the border and spill the violence over into the US.

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"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

If pot is legalized, i have zero doubt that the Chinese would dominate that market within a few years...

++

Maybe in 10 years or so.

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"...the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?" -Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

DE, to be fair, you weren't very clear in what your position was initially.

I don't really have a problem with making imports illegal for a time, in order to knock the cartels out of the business.

However I'm not certain it is necessary. Alcohol imports are big because people like wine from France and Italy, beer from Germany, tequila from Mexico, etc. I have no idea if there is any such differentiation in product when it comes to marijuana. If there isn't, then the drive to try the imported stuff won't be there. They will go after the best, cheapest product.

Unless the product is significantly better than local stuff (which, in my admitted ignorance, I have to think is unlikely) it would absolutely destroy the marijuana import market. The cartels would be forced to switch to something else.

/sigh

You can't get the cartels out of business by keeping it illegal to import into the country. That's what they do now. It's their business model. You put the cartels out of business by opening up markets to all players, foreign and domestic, and crushing their profits.

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 

^^ Increase supply and price goes down. Price goes down and it is no longer worth killing over (unless you are Monsanto).

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If the U.S. legalized distribution, Mexico would almost certainly follow suit immediately. The Mexican drug cartels distribute to the U.S. as their major source of cash flow, so why would Mexico keep fighting the U.S.'s "drug war" when (at least in regard to MJ) we gave up on it?



Would they even be allowed to manufacture Guiness in order for it to be imported in the first place? Alcohol is not marijuana. Marijuana is a grown plant and while there are variations to be sure, the bottom line is that it isn't manufactured. Alcohol manufactured "Under the table" is much harder to make to the same level of quality as a fine beer like Guiness because you just can't have the same quality people and equipment to do it with; concealment and the cost of confiscation is a major issue. A plant grown illegally is pretty much the same as one grown legally. I certainly am not aware that marijuana grown legally (of which some does exist in some states) tastes significantly better or gives a better high than illegal weed.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Uh, yes, you actually can. Their business model works because it's also illegal to manufacture and distribute domestically. If that were not the case, they'd be hosed. On the other hand, if you legalized forieng imports, their production means are already in place. They'd simply transition to legitimate business and be on top of the game. In the process they (and everyone else) would have learned that wiolent thuggery will do the job; all you have to do is keep it up long enough and the pro-legalization crowd will do your work for you.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

My initial position was pretty clear, and it was re-explaiend a few times.



Except that it wouldn't. Mexico is a physical neighbor to the United States with well-established land lines of communication. Importing from Mexico legally is trivially easy. There's no need to utilize ships or aircraft. In parts of the U.S. that are more remote to Mexico, that might not be the case, but the closer you get to Mexcio, the more the establish distrbution networks will dominate.

In areas close to Mexico, Teacate and Dos Equis beers are quite popular despite being essentially comparable to everyday domestics like Bud Light or Miller Light. The import costs from Mexico are not enough to "destroy the market."

This is also why China won't dominate the market. China isn't physically next door to the U.S. and it would be very hard to compete with Mexico.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

This analogy is useless because it would need to assume that Ireland banned beer primarily because of beer wars going on in the U.S. If, in that case, the U.S. legalized imports of beer again, why would Ireland keep beer illegal?



I already clearly addressed this:



It's always to our benefit to accommodate the needs of other nations, especially neighbors and allies whenever we can. Furthermore, in this case, Mexico's problems are our problems because they directly relate to what's happening in this country, both in terms of illegal immigraton and criminal violence. That's another issue actually; a sudden increase in marijuana farming in the U.S. would only create more incentive for illegal immigration, and hiring cheap immigrant labor.

Second, no, it would not remove the incentive to deal across the border, nor for violence. All you'd have done is given them a secure, legitimate income stream, but the same actual people would be in control of Mexican production - now as legitimate businessmen. That wouldn't suddenly cure them of their thuggish ways; they are not freedom fighters who only butcher, mutilate, intimidate and kidnap because they're struggling against oppressive U.S. drug laws. They're big-time criminals who are used to getting what they want through violence, and they would engage in even more violence because they'd have discovered it works. Just create enough violence and wishful thinkers will start clamoring for legalization with claims about how it's a magic cure for all ills.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

So we should continue to limit the freedoms of Americans, spending billions of dollars on enforcement and imprisoning millions of our own citizens, simply to avoid moral hazard vis-a-vis Mexican cartels? You're right, of course, that Mexican cartels will become big players in the legitimate marijuana market following legalization, just like the booze runners became big players in the alcohol industry after Prohibition was lifted and just like the mob became big players in the legal gambling industry in Vegas once they realized that was more profitable than underground gambling. But so what? Yeah, it sucks that we can't kill or imprison all the bad guys first and then legalize pot, but the fact is, we can't. So the choice is - maintain a pointless and unjust policy that harms millions of good people in order to avoid rewarding a comparatively small number of bad people, or adopt what should have been the policy all along and accept that, in the short term transition period, some bad people will profit as well. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

You didn't bother to read a single word I wrote in this thread, did you?

First of all, I repeatedly and specifically said that we ought to legalize domestic consumption, production, and distribution of marijuana. I've also said that in numerous threads before this one, and while I don't expect anyone to remember y every past statement, I've said it often enough that if you don't remember it but are just assuming a position I have you're being pretty selective in your memories of my posting history. So you can shove this "limiting freedom" crap right up your ***.

Second, I also specifically stated that maintaining the illegality of importation would be temporary, not permanent, until the cartels were financially strangled tot he point that they could no longer bribe and terrorize the government of Mexcio into ineffectuality. I would estimate this at being a 5-10 year period, at most, at which point we could open up imports and be reasonably confident that the average grower or importer was an honest Mexican farmer or truck owner, not an ex-Zeta.

So next time, rather than reading one damn line and just assuming the rest of my meaning, try understanding the issue at hand, and the posts that have gone before rather than just reading one line and making a knee-jerk assumption about my meaning. It's a "no-brainer" only if you've got no brain.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Wow, I really did completely misconstrue your position on this one, DE. Sorry about that. My bad for skimming and assuming instead of more carefully reading.

ITT: Big assumptions

1) That Mexico will immediately follow suit and make marijuana legal in their country as well
2) That cartels will be able to import enough weed illegally to overtake legitimate USA-grown
3) That people wont be able to find out the origins of their product and neglect to buy from cartels
4) That the low cost of marijuana post-legalization would generate enough profit to continue smuggling illegally

Another thought:
No one said we needed to legalize the mass farming and distribution of marijuana (I'd prefer it, sure). Maybe we just legalize personal use and growing with a license. No much different from right now where you need to get a doctor recommendation, just remove the threat of Feds kicking my door in and I'll be 100% happy.

Hardly a big assumption, since the primary reason marijuana is grown in bulk in Mexico is to export it to the U.S. You already stated they have legalized personal use, so what reason would they have for keeping mass production illegal beyond dealing with the existing criminals?



It's a far bigger assumption that startup U.S. production will be able to compete with existing large Mexican grow operations just because a river is in the way.



A far bigger assumption that the average marijuana user even cares.



Again, counterbalanced by the fact that legalized import would vastly reduce costs to Mexican growers because they would no longer suffer losses to seizures by law enforcement, nor would they have the costs imposed by concealing their trade to deal with.



No one's contesting that legalizing mass domestic farming and distribution is a bad idea, so there's no reason to even address that. I'd prefer it as well. However, there's no threat the Federal government is going to kick in your door for a little personal use right now. They might technically be able to, but you're not worth the effort. You're a local matter, especially since you don't engage in violence. In any case, it isn't about whether people want to use marijuana or not, or about freeing you from the fear of arrest. It's cost-benefit. Freeing people to use marijuana legally (with certain restrictions, like don't drive high) is very likely to be far less costly than trying to maintain an outright ban, so we should do it.

As for importation, you seem to think that complete legalization would eliminate cartels. I don't agree with that, but even if it were true, granting legal sanction to domestic growers while continuing to ban imports would eliminate cartels even faster. There's no real reason to legalize imports in the short term; once the cartels are dead, or at least small and weak enough to be manageable by the Mexican government, then sure. Right now, however, that's not a good idea. The idea is to eliminate illegal marijuana trade and the associated violence by replacing it with legal, peaceful trade. The idea is not to give the government a big spanking by legalizing everything and hollaring about "freedom". Freedom is good because of its practical benefits, not just because it's freedom.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

I think we're done here. Thanks for not reading my responses.

drugs
Mexicans
omg!

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Buckle your pants or they might fall down.

Grow your own, just keep it discreet.

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Holy shitsnacks!

I read your responses carefully, and I qualified what I said as what you "seem to think" based on what I read, which clearly indicates that I'm opening the floor to a correction. Sorry, you don't get to play the "you didn't read my responses" card. Oh wait, that's right. You've been doing nothing but knee-jerk arguing for the sake of arguing this entire thread.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

You can now in this country make a small amount of alcohol for personal use as long as you don't sell it. That could work to start, see what happens.

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I prefer to think of them as "Fighting evil in another dimension"

If marijuana is legalized they need to go full-bore. If memory serves it is actually an amazing crop in terms of rejuvenating soil and would be preferable to letting fields lie fallow while they recuperate from a few years of hard planting.

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