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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:58 am 
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Nitefox wrote:
Talya wrote:
Nitefox wrote:
That's a dumb opinion. If no one ever, anywhere, had come up with the concept of relgion...people would still find a cause or reason to kill, subject, rule, overthrow, coerce, whatever else you can think of.


If nobody had ever come up with Nazism, people would still find cause or reason to kill, subject, rule, overthrow, coerce, blah blah blah. Therefore Hitler's not that bad, because people would have done it anyway? Is that your argument?



Was Hitler a person or a religion?


Hitler and Nazism are pretty much used synonymously. Hitler was the living embodiment of Nazi ideology. So replace "Hitler" with "Nazism" in the statement if you like.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:25 am 
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Talya wrote:
Nitefox wrote:
Talya wrote:
Nitefox wrote:
That's a dumb opinion. If no one ever, anywhere, had come up with the concept of relgion...people would still find a cause or reason to kill, subject, rule, overthrow, coerce, whatever else you can think of.


If nobody had ever come up with Nazism, people would still find cause or reason to kill, subject, rule, overthrow, coerce, blah blah blah. Therefore Hitler's not that bad, because people would have done it anyway? Is that your argument?



Was Hitler a person or a religion?


Hitler and Nazism are pretty much used synonymously. Hitler was the living embodiment of Nazi ideology. So replace "Hitler" with "Nazism" in the statement if you like.




Nice dodge. I'll ask again, was Hitler a person or a religion?

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:30 am 
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Talya wrote:
Nitefox wrote:
Talya wrote:
. People have done incalculable harm to the human species over time.




Fixed for reality.


Also simplistic.

let's put it another way:

People would have done a lot less harm to each other and human society without this organized superstition. Religion is a net negative...and the balance sheet isn't even close. For every minor bit of good it does, it causes far more damage. People without religion are better off than people with religion. Religion is an evolutionary disease. Whatever purpose it once served in helping humans survive their hostile world, it now drags us down, inhibits progress and stifles advancement.


Even if harmless, it's frustrating. It's difficult to have faith in your fellow humans when they exhibit such willful ignorance, and such a lack of adherence to logic or reason.


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 Post subject: Re: 46% of Americans
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:34 am 
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You may believe religion provided more cause for suffering than its worth, but perhaps you should examine your heart to see if your biases prevent you from seeing the historic examples it provided for folks to do good.

If you conclude that more people followed the examples that led to suffering, I'd say that you prove the Fox's theory that it's people that cause suffering, not the examples religion provides.

To me, the examples of the prophets, the eastern religious philosophers, and the reported life of the Christ (etc...) speak pretty strongly as primary examples of the "propaganda" (as some would characterize it) religious folks point to. The failure to meet the challenge of those messages is all on each of us, individually and as a species...not the message of religion itself.

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 Post subject: Re: 46% of Americans
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:36 am 
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Taskiss wrote:
While you may believe religion provided more cause for suffering than its worth, perhaps you should examine your heart to see if your biases prevent you from seeing the historic examples it provided for folks to do good.

If you conclude that more people followed the examples that led to suffering, I'd say that you prove the Fox's theory that it's people that cause suffering, not the examples religion provides.

To me, the examples of the prophets, the eastern religious philosophers, and the reported life of the Christ (etc...) speak pretty strongly as primary examples of the "propaganda" (as some would characterize it) religious folks point to. The failure to meet the challenge of those messages is all on each of us, individually and as a species...not the message of religion itself.


She won't reconsider her opinion for the same reasons many won't consider evolutionary theory. It is contrary to her simplified, chosen world view, and is intellectually inconvenient to do so.


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 Post subject: Re: 46% of Americans
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:37 am 
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Taskiss wrote:
While you may believe religion provided more cause for suffering than its worth, perhaps you should examine your heart to see if your biases prevent you from seeing the historic examples it provided for folks to do good.

If you conclude that more people followed the examples that led to suffering, I'd say that you prove the Fox's theory that it's people that cause suffering, not the examples religion provides.

To me, the examples of the prophets, the eastern religious philosophers, and the reported life of the Christ (etc...) speak pretty strongly as primary examples of the "propaganda" (as some would characterize it) religious folks point to. The failure to meet the challenge of those messages is all on each of us, individually and as a species...not the message of religion itself.



Living up to them? The messages themselves are overwhelmingly negative for most major religions - including judaism-christianity-islam. Are you seriously going to point to "the message?" Do you actually know what the bible promotes? I'll give you a hint: it's not peace and tolerance and love and goodwill.

And examples of iconic religious figures? Take a look at the attrocities of Moses/Joshua/David. See the intolerance of Saul of Tarsus and Simon Peter. Look at the wonderful message of forcible conversion of Muhammed. Seems to me that even if Jesus was alright, that's one prophet out of many that said a few good things. (And he didn't even ever claim to be who his followers later said he was.)

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But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me

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Last edited by Talya on Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 46% of Americans
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:39 am 
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Talya wrote:
Taskiss wrote:
While you may believe religion provided more cause for suffering than its worth, perhaps you should examine your heart to see if your biases prevent you from seeing the historic examples it provided for folks to do good.

If you conclude that more people followed the examples that led to suffering, I'd say that you prove the Fox's theory that it's people that cause suffering, not the examples religion provides.

To me, the examples of the prophets, the eastern religious philosophers, and the reported life of the Christ (etc...) speak pretty strongly as primary examples of the "propaganda" (as some would characterize it) religious folks point to. The failure to meet the challenge of those messages is all on each of us, individually and as a species...not the message of religion itself.



Living up to them? The messages themselves are overwhelmingly negative for most major religions - including judaism-christianity-islam. Are you seriously going to point to "the message?" Do you actually know what the bible promotes? I'll give you a hint: it's not peace and tolerance and love and goodwill.


Bullshit.


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 Post subject: Re: 46% of Americans
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:54 am 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Talya wrote:
Living up to them? The messages themselves are overwhelmingly negative for most major religions - including judaism-christianity-islam. Are you seriously going to point to "the message?" Do you actually know what the bible promotes? I'll give you a hint: it's not peace and tolerance and love and goodwill.


Bullshit.



You really want to go down this road? Anyone who thinks the bible is a good book of peace, tolerance, love and goodwill has not read it. Let's start with just a few. Yes, this is just a few. There's so much that's despicable in "the good book" that I've barely scratched the surface. I started looking up some I knew, and realized, you're not even going to read the ones I posted. Suffice it to say, here we have a ridiculous list of dumb things god says you need to die for, proper rules for the raping and oppression of women, and commands of genocide.

Genesis 22:2
Exodus 21:7-11
Exodus 21:15
Exodus 22:17-18
Leviticus 20:9
Leviticus 20:10
Leviticus 20:13
Leviticus 20:27
Leviticus 21:9
Leviticus 24:10-16
Exodus 22:19
Numbers 31:7-18
Deuteronomy 13:1-5
Deuteronomy 13:7-12
Deuteronomy 13:13-19
Deuteronomy 17:12
Deuteronomy 20:10-14
Deuteronomy 21:10-14
Deuteronomy 22:20-21
Deuteronomy 22:23-24
Deuteronomy 22:28-29
Judges 5:30
Judges 11:30-1, 34-5
Judges 19:25-28
Judges 21:10-24
1 Samuel 15:3
2 Samuel 12:11-14
Psalm 137:9
Proverbs 20:20
Zechariah 13:3
Zechariah 14:1-2
Romans 1:24-32
1 Timothy 2:12
1 Peter 2:18

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But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:58 am 
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I thought Coro already established that the religious can't read Talya... /stirpot


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:01 am 
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Schickelgruber was a person. Hitler was a facade.

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 Post subject: Re: 46% of Americans
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:18 am 
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Quote:
Talya wrote:
Taskiss wrote:
While you may believe religion provided more cause for suffering than its worth, perhaps you should examine your heart to see if your biases prevent you from seeing the historic examples it provided for folks to do good.

If you conclude that more people followed the examples that led to suffering, I'd say that you prove the Fox's theory that it's people that cause suffering, not the examples religion provides.

To me, the examples of the prophets, the eastern religious philosophers, and the reported life of the Christ (etc...) speak pretty strongly as primary examples of the "propaganda" (as some would characterize it) religious folks point to. The failure to meet the challenge of those messages is all on each of us, individually and as a species...not the message of religion itself.



Living up to them?


Living up to what? I said "meet the challenge".

Quote:
The messages themselves are overwhelmingly negative for most major religions - including judaism-christianity-islam. Are you seriously going to point to "the message?" Do you actually know what the bible promotes? I'll give you a hint: it's not peace and tolerance and love and goodwill.


This is an area where you and I disagree. I don't believe that your short list of individual sentences from the bible in any logical way supports your assertion of an "overwhelmingly negative" ... anything.


Quote:
And examples of iconic religious figures? Take a look at the attrocities of Moses/Joshua/David. See the intolerance of Saul of Tarsus and Simon Peter. Look at the wonderful message of forcible conversion of Muhammed. Seems to me that even if Jesus was alright, that's one prophet out of many that said a few good things. (And he didn't even ever claim to be who his followers later said he was.)


Totally from a non-religious perspective -

Moses - The lesson of Moses to me is obedience. He led his people but didn't follow the rules so didn't get into the chosen land. More than that, you'll have to talk to someone else. Oh, other than the commandments thing and parting the Red Sea. From the movie I got those, not the bible.
Joshua - ... never heard much of him, the name's familiar but I draw a blank on the story. Seems there's not much of a message associated with him either, but I could be wrong. Then too, if the message hasn't trickled down to me - a pretty much non-religious person - then there's not much logic in holding up the story as a negative.
David - Goliath. The message - God will help you overcome.

Now, I gotta tell you, I've not tried to use the bible to justify anything, for good or evil. I'd say that those that do can find what they want.

Which pretty well makes Fox's case.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:20 am 
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Talya wrote:
Religion is a net negative...and the balance sheet isn't even close. For every minor bit of good it does, it causes far more damage. People without religion are better off than people with religion. Religion is an evolutionary disease. Whatever purpose it once served in helping humans survive their hostile world, it now drags us down, inhibits progress and stifles advancement.

Per your final sentence in the quote above, is your view that religion is a net negative solely in reference to its contemporary effects? I ask because I think it's difficult to argue one way or the other with respect to religion's net effect throughout history. On the one hand, it was the trigger and the justification for countless wars and atrocities, but on the other hand, it was also a significant (arguably indispensable) factor in the very foundation and subsequent spread of large-scale human civilization, the source of (or at least a major contributor to) every moral code (including secular humanism), and the basis for the development of just war theory, the conception of human rights and restrictions on the arbitrary/totalitarian power of the state. How does one net all of that out?


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 Post subject: Re: 46% of Americans
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:23 am 
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Taskiss wrote:
Moses - The lesson of Moses to me is obedience. He led his people but didn't follow the rules so didn't get into the chosen land. More than that, you'll have to talk to someone else. Oh, other than the commandments thing and parting the Red Sea.

Not what I was getting at (Assuming the biblical account was true, Moses was a monster), but let's go with that:
That's a terrible message. "Obey, or else!" Institutionalized tyranny.


Quote:
Joshua - ... never heard much of him, the name's familiar but I draw a blank on the story. Seems there's not much of a message associated with him either, but I could be wrong. Then too, if the message hasn't trickled down to me - a pretty much non-religious person - then there's not much logic in holding up the story as a negative.


Joshua was Moses' replacement. He led Israel in the genocidal invasion of Canaan.

Quote:
David - Goliath. The message - God will help you overcome.

Participated in the attempted genocide of the Phillistines, was an adulterer and murderer. (For this crime, God killed his infant son. Yay, justice!)

Quote:
Which pretty well makes Fox's case.


So, the rare good apple proves religion is alright, and the overwhelming prevalance of negative examples are just people who don't live up to the message? Really?

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But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:32 am 
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Wow, not to further derail (or is this more of a partial re-rail?), but I just came across this Gallup poll tracker on approval of interracial marriage:

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Gallup wrote:
As recently as 1994, less than half of Americans approved [of marriage between blacks and whites].

Sweet Jesus. Seriously?


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:51 am 
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RangerDave wrote:
Wow, not to further derail (or is this more of a partial re-rail?), but I just came across this Gallup poll tracker on approval of interracial marriage:

Image
Gallup wrote:
As recently as 1994, less than half of Americans approved [of marriage between blacks and whites].

Sweet Jesus. Seriously?



Not surprising. Have you seen how black women get all crazy when a brother hooks up with a white chick?

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 Post subject: Re: 46% of Americans
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:55 am 
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I'm sorry you all think I'm stupid and ignorant I've tried to be a tolerant debater. Iget certain people have deep set ideas against God, but I've tried to be a voice of reason and denounced despotism whatever guise it takes.
However there is a time that one needs to shake the proverbial dust from their feet and sometimes I wonder if my time has come. I'm gonna take the rest of passion week off. Ill talk to you all Monday. Be safe and God Bless.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:01 am 
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RangerDave wrote:
Sweet Jesus. Seriously?

You do know that was 20 years ago right? You are old.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:02 am 
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Rorinthas wrote:
I'm sorry you all think I'm stupid and ignorant I've tried to be a tolerant debater. Iget certain people have deep set ideas against God, but I've tried to be a voice of reason and denounced despotism whatever guise it takes.
However there is a time that one needs to shake the proverbial dust from their feet and sometimes I wonder if my time has come. I'm gonna take the rest of passion week off. Ill talk to you all Monday. Be safe and God Bless.


You should know by know that talking with Taly about religion is like trying to teach a pig to sing.

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 Post subject: Re: 46% of Americans
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:04 am 
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Talya wrote:

You really want to go down this road? Anyone who thinks the bible is a good book of peace, tolerance, love and goodwill has not read it. Let's start with just a few. Yes, this is just a few. There's so much that's despicable in "the good book" that I've barely scratched the surface. I started looking up some I knew, and realized, you're not even going to read the ones I posted. Suffice it to say, here we have a ridiculous list of dumb things god says you need to die for, proper rules for the raping and oppression of women, and commands of genocide.


I think you need to be specific about who, exactly, you have a hate on about. I mean, besides hasty generalizations, your assault on religions "as a whole" using only the Christian bible is, at best, deliberately disingenous. For many reasons.

That said, I really don't give a damn if you want to continue to espouse your particular hate (although it always puzzles me how that's any better than hate fueled by religious fervor).

Since it's a slow news day, as it were, let's look at some of these:

Spoiler:
Genesis 22:2
Quote:
Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, whom you love--Isaac--and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on a mountain I will show you."


Exodus 21:7-11
Quote:
7“If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as male servants do. 8If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself,b he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. 9If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. 10If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. 11If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money.


Exodus 21:15
Quote:
15“Anyone who attacks their father or mother is to be put to death.


Exodus 22:17-18
Quote:
17If her father absolutely refuses to give her to him, he must still pay the bride-price for virgins.

18“Do not allow a sorceress to live.


Leviticus 20:9
Quote:
9“ ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death. Because they have cursed their father or mother, their blood will be on their own head.


Leviticus 20:10
Quote:
10“ ‘If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death.


Leviticus 20:13
Quote:
13“ ‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.


Leviticus 20:27
Quote:
27“ ‘A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads.’ ”


Leviticus 21:9
Quote:
9“ ‘If a priest’s daughter defiles herself by becoming a prostitute, she disgraces her father; she must be burned in the fire.


Leviticus 24:10-16
Quote:
ow the son of an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father went out among the Israelites, and a fight broke out in the camp between him and an Israelite. 11The son of the Israelite woman blasphemed the Name with a curse; so they brought him to Moses. (His mother’s name was Shelomith, the daughter of Dibri the Danite.) 12They put him in custody until the will of the Lord should be made clear to them.

13Then the Lord said to Moses: 14“Take the blasphemer outside the camp. All those who heard him are to lay their hands on his head, and the entire assembly is to stone him. 15Say to the Israelites: ‘Anyone who curses their God will be held responsible; 16anyone who blasphemes the name of the Lord is to be put to death. The entire assembly must stone them. Whether foreigner or native-born, when they blaspheme the Name they are to be put to death.


Exodus 22:19
Quote:
19“Anyone who has sexual relations with an animal is to be put to death.


Numbers 31:7-18
Quote:
7They fought against Midian, as the Lord commanded Moses, and killed every man. 8Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. 9The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. 11They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, 12and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho.

13Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.

15“Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. 16“They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord’s people. 17Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.


Deuteronomy 13:1-5
Quote:
1If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a sign or wonder, 2and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,” 3you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.


Deuteronomy 13:7-12
Quote:
7gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. 9You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 11Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again.

12If you hear it said about one of the towns the Lord your God is giving you to live in


Deuteronomy 13:13-19
Quote:
hat troublemakers have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods you have not known), 14then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, 15you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. You must destroy it completely,a both its people and its livestock. 16You are to gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. That town is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt, 17and none of the condemned thingsb are to be found in your hands. Then the Lord will turn from his fierce anger, will show you mercy, and will have compassion on you. He will increase your numbers, as he promised on oath to your ancestors— 18because you obey the Lord your God by keeping all his commands that I am giving you today and doing what is right in his eyes.[No verse 19 exists]


Deuteronomy 17:12
Quote:
12Anyone who shows contempt for the judge or for the priest who stands ministering there to the Lord your God is to be put to death. You must purge the evil from Israel


Deuteronomy 20:10-14
Quote:
10When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies.


Deuteronomy 21:10-14
Quote:
10When you go to war against your enemies and the Lord your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, 11if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. 12Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails 13and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. 14If you are not pleased with her, let her go wherever she wishes. You must not sell her or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her.


Deuteronomy 22:20-21
Quote:
20If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the young woman’s virginity can be found, 21she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done an outrageous thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house. You must purge the evil from among you.


Deuteronomy 22:23-24
Quote:
23If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among you.


Deuteronomy 22:28-29
Quote:
28If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29he shall pay her father fifty shekelsc of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.


Judges 5:30
Quote:
30‘Are they not finding and dividing the spoils:

a woman or two for each man,

colorful garments as plunder for Sisera,

colorful garments embroidered,

highly embroidered garments for my neck—

all this as plunder?’


Judges 11:30-1, 34-5
[Unclear citation]

Judges 19:25-28
Quote:
25But the men would not listen to him. So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. 26At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight.

27When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house and stepped out to continue on his way, there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold. 28He said to her, “Get up; let’s go.” But there was no answer. Then the man put her on his donkey and set out for home.


Judges 21:10-24
Quote:
10So the assembly sent twelve thousand fighting men with instructions to go to Jabesh Gilead and put to the sword those living there, including the women and children. 11“This is what you are to do,” they said. “Kill every male and every woman who is not a virgin.” 12They found among the people living in Jabesh Gilead four hundred young women who had never slept with a man, and they took them to the camp at Shiloh in Canaan.

13Then the whole assembly sent an offer of peace to the Benjamites at the rock of Rimmon. 14So the Benjamites returned at that time and were given the women of Jabesh Gilead who had been spared. But there were not enough for all of them.

15The people grieved for Benjamin, because the Lord had made a gap in the tribes of Israel. 16And the elders of the assembly said, “With the women of Benjamin destroyed, how shall we provide wives for the men who are left? 17The Benjamite survivors must have heirs,” they said, “so that a tribe of Israel will not be wiped out. 18We can’t give them our daughters as wives, since we Israelites have taken this oath: ‘Cursed be anyone who gives a wife to a Benjamite.’ 19But look, there is the annual festival of the Lord in Shiloh, which lies north of Bethel, east of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem, and south of Lebonah.”

20So they instructed the Benjamites, saying, “Go and hide in the vineyards 21and watch. When the young women of Shiloh come out to join in the dancing, rush from the vineyards and each of you seize one of them to be your wife. Then return to the land of Benjamin. 22When their fathers or brothers complain to us, we will say to them, ‘Do us the favor of helping them, because we did not get wives for them during the war. You will not be guilty of breaking your oath because you did not give your daughters to them.’ ”

23So that is what the Benjamites did. While the young women were dancing, each man caught one and carried her off to be his wife. Then they returned to their inheritance and rebuilt the towns and settled in them.

24At that time the Israelites left that place and went home to their tribes and clans, each to his own inheritance.


1 Samuel 15:3
Quote:
3Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroya all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’ ”


2 Samuel 12:11-14
Quote:
11“This is what the Lord says: ‘Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity on you. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will sleep with your wives in broad daylight. 12You did it in secret, but I will do this thing in broad daylight before all Israel.’ ”

13Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.”

Nathan replied, “The Lord has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. 14But because by doing this you have shown utter contempt fora the Lord, the son born to you will die.”


Psalm 137:9
Quote:
9Happy is the one who seizes your infants

and dashes them against the rocks.
[I find find the selection of this one for ire particularly misplaced, considering it's the final stanza of the song of Zion.]


Proverbs 20:20
Quote:
20If someone curses their father or mother,

their lamp will be snuffed out in pitch darkness.


Zechariah 13:3
Quote:
3And if anyone still prophesies, their father and mother, to whom they were born, will say to them, ‘You must die, because you have told lies in the Lord’s name.’ Then their own parents will stab the one who prophesies.


Zechariah 14:1-2
Quote:
1A day of the Lord is coming, Jerusalem, when your possessions will be plundered and divided up within your very walls.

2I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city


Romans 1:24-32
Quote:
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
[It should be noted that this is the first of your quoted scriptures that falls within the New Testament, a not-unimportant distinction.]


1 Timothy 2:12
Quote:
12I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;b she must be quiet.


1 Peter 2:18
Quote:
18Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. 19For it is commendable if someone bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because they are conscious of God

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:07 am 
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Additionally, I find it interesting that if a religion espouses a moral code (and affiliated punishments) as well as empowers itself to be followed (including affiliated punishments for non-adherence) but a secular government does the same thing, that's somehow more acceptable.

Unless what you're really arguing is anarchy. In which case, state that, and stop trolling the religion aspects.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:11 am 
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Nitefox wrote:
Not surprising. Have you seen how black women get all crazy when a brother hooks up with a white chick?


Gallup wrote:
Blacks are even more likely than whites to approve of interracial marriages....The attitudes of blacks about interracial marriage are not available from Gallup's initial 1958 polling on the subject. However, starting with the 1968 poll, a majority of blacks have consistently approved of marriages between blacks and whites. In the 1968 poll, 56% of blacks said they approved of black-white unions. This percentage gradually increased by the late 1970s to the mid-60% range and then to the low 70% range in the 1980s and early 1990s. By 1997, three in four blacks approved of interracial marriages, and since 2003, at least 80% have approved.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:15 am 
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RangerDave wrote:
Nitefox wrote:
Not surprising. Have you seen how black women get all crazy when a brother hooks up with a white chick?


Gallup wrote:
Blacks are even more likely than whites to approve of interracial marriages....The attitudes of blacks about interracial marriage are not available from Gallup's initial 1958 polling on the subject. However, starting with the 1968 poll, a majority of blacks have consistently approved of marriages between blacks and whites. In the 1968 poll, 56% of blacks said they approved of black-white unions. This percentage gradually increased by the late 1970s to the mid-60% range and then to the low 70% range in the 1980s and early 1990s. By 1997, three in four blacks approved of interracial marriages, and since 2003, at least 80% have approved.



I was being funny(I fail a lot).

But I get it...white equals evil(unless you are a lefty).

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:17 am 
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Hopwin wrote:
RangerDave wrote:
Sweet Jesus. Seriously?

You do know that was 20 years ago right? You are old.

Ha! Indeed. I recently commented to my mother that I had crossed some "I am now officially old" threshold when I realized that I had clear, adult/semi-adult memories that were 20 years old. Still, I do think the 90s are relatively contemporary (post-Cold War, Clinton era, many of the same political arguments we're having now, etc.), and it's shocking to me that less than half the country approved of interracial marriage at that time.

*Edit: Changed "fewer" to "less". /self grammar nazied


Last edited by RangerDave on Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:20 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:19 am 
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RangerDave wrote:
Hopwin wrote:
RangerDave wrote:
Sweet Jesus. Seriously?

You do know that was 20 years ago right? You are old.

Ha! Indeed. I recently commented to my mother that I had crossed some "I am now officially old" threshold when I realized that I had clear, adult/semi-adult memories that were 20 years old. Still, I do think the 90s are relatively contemporary (post-Cold War, Clinton era, many of the same political arguments we're having now, etc.), and it's shocking to me that fewer than half the country approved of interracial marriage at that time.

In 1994 you still had people alive who were enough old to experience the Great Depression, Segregation and Jim Crowe. It takes generational attrition for societies to change.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:20 am 
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RangerDave wrote:
Per your final sentence in the quote above, is your view that religion is a net negative solely in reference to its contemporary effects? I ask because I think it's difficult to argue one way or the other with respect to religion's net effect throughout history.



I agree. Whatever evolutionary factors led us to be prone to religiosity -- it was undoubtedly selected for a reason. It provided some evolutionary advantage to humanity at some point in its development. As I said, it's a vestigial evolutionary social organ that is prone to social cancers...but at some point it was useful in the survival of human society.

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