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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 11:37 am 
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RangerDave wrote:
Elmarnieh wrote:
Taskiss how much history do you need before you understand that trying to be the strongman police of the world is a losing idea in all regards?

What history are you referring to? Our "strongman police of the world" efforts over the years have yielded both success and failures as well as quite a few mixed-bag results. There's no credible case I can see for claiming that it's a losing idea "in all regards".


I have to imagine that "success" has a subjective definition and anything you're defining as such would not meet Elmo's definition, and vice versa.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 11:56 am 
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DFK! wrote:
I have to imagine that "success" has a subjective definition and anything you're defining as such would not meet Elmo's definition, and vice versa.

Probably true. Personally, I would classify the safeguarding of Western Europe, South Korea and Taiwan during the Cold War as major successes, while Vietnam was a clear failure and our anti-Communist policies elsewhere in the developing world were a mixed bag (leaning toward failure) given how repugnant most of our client regimes were. In more recent years, I would call the intervention in Yugoslavia's civil war a belated success, in that although we waited too long to get involved, once we did, we brought an end to the slaughter in Bosnia and prevented further death and destruction in Kosovo, all with relatively little downside. I would call the first Gulf War a mixed bag because we successfully saved Kuwaitis from Hussein and gutted his ability to wage external war but generated blowback by stationing troops in Saudi Arabia and failed to prevent the subsequent mass slaughter of Kurds and Shias in Iraq itself. The recent/current wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya were also mixed bags because we successfully took out vicious regimes that brutalized their own people and generally opposed our interests, but in the process we incurred massive costs, generated blowback, and left behind unstable, conflict-riven states. I suspect Syria will be another example of that mix.


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 2:31 pm 
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DFK! wrote:
RangerDave wrote:
Elmarnieh wrote:
Taskiss how much history do you need before you understand that trying to be the strongman police of the world is a losing idea in all regards?

What history are you referring to? Our "strongman police of the world" efforts over the years have yielded both success and failures as well as quite a few mixed-bag results. There's no credible case I can see for claiming that it's a losing idea "in all regards".


I have to imagine that "success" has a subjective definition and anything you're defining as such would not meet Elmo's definition, and vice versa.


Which is true: success is necessarily defined by achieving whatever the goal in question is. However, the fact that someone else is not setting the same goals does not somehow imply that they aren't looking at history.

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 Post subject: Re: War with Syria
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:57 am 
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http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23955655

And that pretty much puts a nail in the Syrian rebels coffin...

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 Post subject: Re: War with Syria
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:09 am 
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Maybe, maybe not. Russia just doesn't want its S-300 sales messed up. That's the skin they have in this game, Assad purchasing SAMs; fancy expensive ones.

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 Post subject: Re: War with Syria
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:13 am 
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Taskiss wrote:
http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23955655

And that pretty much puts a nail in the Syrian rebels coffin...


Oh, come on. Russia is not going to risk a conflict to protect Assad. We know this. We also do not typically require Russia approve of our foreign policy decisions.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:19 am 
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With Obama backpedaling on the "red line", I'm figuring that he's looking for a back door to escape this issue. Well, if he wants one, here it is.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:31 pm 
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Who is the Archduke Franz Ferdinand these days?

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 Post subject: Re: War with Syria
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:32 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:41 am 
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It's kinda sad that Putin might be right on this one.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:06 pm 
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we have no god damned business in Syria, my **** given to **** possessed ratio is low here.

Let the mother **** world solve its own god damned problems for once.

We have enough **** in our own backyard going on. **** Syria, **** Syrians, **** Russia, **** the UN, fix our **** and let other people the **** alone.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:32 pm 
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Let the UN deal with Syria. Isn't that what it's for?

They seem inclined to let us step in and be the 'bad buys'. Screw that.

Any missile, or troop... anything that goes into syria should have a UN logo emblazoned on it.

No American flags...


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 Post subject: Re: War with Syria
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:26 pm 
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How do I +1 DS and Midgen in the same post?? Aww hell with it...

I agree wholeheartedly with DS and Midgen. We need to bring our people home and let everyone else take care of worldly things for a change, while we take care of THIS country and OUR problems!!

And STOP sending foreign aid to these countries that would rather see us all dead!!

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 Post subject: Re: War with Syria
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 6:24 pm 
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We're never going to solve our problems at home. There will always be domestic, social problems.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:58 am 
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That could be DE but it doesn't change the point that we shouldn't be giving money to people that hate us when we are going broke.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 5:39 pm 
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No, we shouldn't. However, that does not also mean we should let the other side gas people without consequence. Isolationism is no longer a reasonable policy. We don't need to get deeply involved, but the idea that we're going to "solve our problems and let the world deal with its problems" is a happy oversimplification. There is no wall that keeps us and the world separate.

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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 6:27 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
However, that does not also mean we should let the other side gas people without consequence.


By "other side", you mean.. who exactly? anyone?


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:22 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
No, we shouldn't. However, that does not also mean we should let the other side gas people without consequence. .


Why? They've been killing each other for years now. Why now? Just because one side uses a different method to kill their opponents?

Its a civil war in which neither side will thank us for helping. We need to stay the **** out of it.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:16 pm 
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Midgen wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
However, that does not also mean we should let the other side gas people without consequence.


By "other side", you mean.. who exactly? anyone?


The other side from the people that we shouldn't give money to who hate us (i.e., the government of Syria, with the side that hates us that would be taking the money being the rebels - if that were even universally true. There's at least 5 separate rebel factions with widely varying feelings towards us.)

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Why? They've been killing each other for years now. Why now? Just because one side uses a different method to kill their opponents?


Given the nature of that means, yes. It's a warning, more than anything - keep that **** in your country or far worse could happen.

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Its a civil war in which neither side will thank us for helping. We need to stay the **** out of it.


Well, it's too late for that, it isn't precisely true that neither side would thank us, and there is no such thing as staying the **** out of it. We're involved in it by virtue of tbeing the U.S. Simply by being a large, powerful country, we are automatically involved in almost all international affairs. Doing nothing is a form of being involved. The same applies to Russia and China, albeit to a lesser extent.

We need to get rid of the idea that "staying the **** out of it" is possible. The closest we could come to that is to remain silent and preserve options, and that was already pissed away. Too late. Now, we need to make a decision. Any decision will have consequences, and no decision will as well.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:56 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
No, we shouldn't. However, that does not also mean we should let the other side gas people without consequence. Isolationism is no longer a reasonable policy. We don't need to get deeply involved, but the idea that we're going to "solve our problems and let the world deal with its problems" is a happy oversimplification. There is no wall that keeps us and the world separate.


I don't disagree. I'm just not sure what the "best" way to do that is. There are very few "good guys" in Syria now. 3 Years ago things wouldn't have been different. Doing nothing isn't the answer. Being the air force for a largely Al Queda backed force isn't the answer either I think.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:20 am 
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Rorinthas wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
No, we shouldn't. However, that does not also mean we should let the other side gas people without consequence. Isolationism is no longer a reasonable policy. We don't need to get deeply involved, but the idea that we're going to "solve our problems and let the world deal with its problems" is a happy oversimplification. There is no wall that keeps us and the world separate.


I don't disagree. I'm just not sure what the "best" way to do that is. There are very few "good guys" in Syria now. 3 Years ago things wouldn't have been different. Doing nothing isn't the answer. Being the air force for a largely Al Queda backed force isn't the answer either I think.


Air support for the rebels isn't what the administration is supporting. What's being asked for is a strike against targets appropriate as a punitive response against the Assad regime for using chemical weapons. That most likely means A) chemical weapons facilities and launch platforms and B) command and control facilities and possibly C) air defense sites. The latter 2 are more likely due to the difficulties of identifying the first one well enough for accurate targeting. Air defense sites also offers the possibility of dealing with the S-300 missiles Russia has been providing.

Note that the S-300 is really a missile family that includes the NATO reporting names SA-10, -12 (2 varients), -20, -X-23, and -N-6, and has evolved into the S-400 (SA-21) and all variants are highly capable, powerful, area-defense SAMs that can form the basis of a sophisticated, integrated air-defense network. The ability to do that relies heavily, however, on skilled and disciplined operation and on being well-maintained and Arabs are notoriously averse to maintenance tasks for cultural reasons. Certainly, however, some S-300 systems are capable anti-cruise missile systems, and a missile attack might give us some idea of the readiness of these missiles without risking pilots in the process.

As for a "best way" and "good guys", there isn't one of the first (there's almost never an obvious best way) and the latter concern isn't really that important. The real issue is that not just Syria, but the entire world know that the use of chemical weapons won't be tolerated. Sadly, when Obama idiotically reversed the policy of regarding a chemical weapons attack on U.S. territory, people, or assets to be equivalent to a nuclear attack, he tacitly reduced the apparent severity with which we regard such a thing, and invited this sort of crap. Then he had to go talking about red lines. The underlying cause of this issue is trying to have things both ways.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:14 pm 
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Müs wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
No, we shouldn't. However, that does not also mean we should let the other side gas people without consequence. .


Why? They've been killing each other for years now. Why now? Just because one side uses a different method to kill their opponents?

Its a civil war in which neither side will thank us for helping. We need to stay the **** out of it.


We are going in, and I firmly believe that we are going in no matter what Congress says, for no other reason other than MURRICA F*** YEAH. I've yet to see the authority which grants the United States the right to go into another country and start blowing s### up. To top it off we are going to be air support for the same people we are supposed to be trying to eradicate via "The War on Terror". The entire situation is about as big of a policy quadmire as we can get into, and Putin is out manuvering Obama at every turn. So we are left to believe there is so tippy-top secret we cant tell you or we have to kill you secret squirrel reason to go in that we peons cant be told until 30 years has passed. The news is giving Obama an editorial out on the situation, but they seem ready to backfill justification for strikes.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:13 pm 
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Hannibal wrote:
We are going in, and I firmly believe that we are going in no matter what Congress says, for no other reason other than MURRICA F*** YEAH.


Since we so far are not going in, the reason has nothing to do with your silly MURRICA F*** YEAH, we can pretty much not worry about this. Oh wait, that's right - MURRICA **** YEAH isn't the reason because it has no definition other than "Term used when someone wants to denigrate American actions but lacks the knowledge to actually make a point."

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I've yet to see the authority which grants the United States the right to go into another country and start blowing s### up.


There doesn't need to be one. Countries don't have or need rights to do things to other countries; the only limitation is their ability to do so and the ability of others to stop them.

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To top it off we are going to be air support for the same people we are supposed to be trying to eradicate via "The War on Terror".


We aren't. You hve no idea what you're talking about.

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The entire situation is about as big of a policy quadmire as we can get into, and Putin is out manuvering Obama at every turn.


It's amazing how everything is a quagmire when people don't want to get involved in it. A few cruise missiles is not a quagmire.

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So we are left to believe there is so tippy-top secret we cant tell you or we have to kill you secret squirrel reason to go in that we peons cant be told until 30 years has passed. The news is giving Obama an editorial out on the situation, but they seem ready to backfill justification for strikes.
[/quote]

What the **** are you even talking about here?

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 Post subject: Re: War with Syria
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:16 am 
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Syria proposes to give up its entire chemical arsenal

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In a rapid and remarkable chain of events, Syria welcomed the idea of turning over all of its chemical weapons for destruction on Monday, and President Barack Obama, though expressing deep skepticism, declared it a "potentially a significant breakthrough" that could head off the threats of U.S. air strikes that have set the world on edge.

The administration pressed ahead in its efforts to persuade Congress to authorize a military strike, and Obama said the day's developments were doubtless due in part to the "credible possibility" of that action. He stuck to his plan to address the nation Tuesday night, while the Senate Democratic leader postponed a vote on authorization.

The sudden developments broke into the open when Russia's foreign minister, seizing on what appeared at the time to be an off-the-cuff remark by Secretary of State John Kerry, appeared in Moscow alongside his Syrian counterpart and proposed the chemical weapons turnover and destruction. The Syrian quickly embraced the idea, and before long U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon did, too.

Obama, who appeared Monday evening in interviews on six TV networks, said the idea actually had been broached in his 20-minute meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin last week on the sidelines of an economic summit in St. Petersburg, Russia. Obama said he directed Kerry to have more conversations with the Russians and "run this to ground."

The president said he would "absolutely" halt a U.S. military strike if Syria's stockpiles were successfully secured, though he remained skeptical about Assad's willingness to carry out the steps needed.

"My objective here has always been to deal with a very specific problem," Obama said in an interview with ABC News. "If we can do that without a military strike, that is overwhelmingly my preference."

The suggestion to secure the chemical weapons "could potentially be a significant breakthrough," Obama told NBC News in another interview. "But we have to be skeptical because this is not how we've seen them operate over the last couple a years."

He cast Russia's proposal as a direct result of the pressure being felt by Syria because of the threat of a U.S. strike and warned that he would not allow the idea to be used as a stalling tactic.

"I don't think that we would have gotten to this point unless we had maintained a credible possibility of a military strike, and I don't think now is the time for us to let up on that," he said.

Still, the White House has had scant success in persuading members of Congress — including Democrats — to support the idea of military action. Senators continued to announce their opposition through the day.

The proposal from Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov came just hours after Kerry told reporters in London that Assad could avoid a U.S. attack and resolve the crisis surrounding the use of chemical weapons by surrendering control of "every single bit" of his arsenal to the international community by the end of the week.

The State Department sought to tamp down the potential impact of Kerry's comments by calling them a "rhetorical" response to a hypothetical question and not "a proposal." But their importance became more clear as the day progressed.

Kerry spoke by phone with Lavrov shortly after making his comments in London, and officials familiar with the call said Lavrov had told Kerry that he had seen the remarks and would be issuing a public statement. Kerry told Lavrov that his comments were not a proposal but the U.S. would be willing to review a serious plan, the officials said. They stressed that he made clear that Lavrov could not present the idea as a joint U.S.-Russian proposal.

The officials commented only on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to describe the information publicly.

Syrian Foreign Minister Walid al-Moallem immediately embraced the plan. And then in quick succession, the U.N. chief did, too, British Prime Minister David Cameron said it was worth exploring, the French foreign ministry said it deserved close examination and former Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton said any move by Syria to surrender its chemical weapons would be an "important step." Clinton, in contrast with the White House and State Department, credited Kerry and Russia jointly for the proposal.

Obama still faces a decidedly uphill fight to win congressional authorization for the use of force — and serious doubts by the American public — and Monday's developments, planned or not, could provide him with a way out of a messy political and foreign policy bind.

Yet, the White House said it does not want Congress to delay votes on use-of-force resolutions while awaiting decisions on whether to proceed with transferring Syria's chemical weapons stockpiles.

The U.S. accuses Assad's government of being behind an attack using sarin gas in a Damascus suburb on Aug. 21, killing 1,429 people. Some other estimates of the deaths are lower, but there is wide agreement that chemical weapons were used. Experts believe that the Syrian government's arsenal of chemical weapons includes nerve agents like sarin, tabun and VX as well as mustard gas.

In an interview with Charlie Rose that was broadcast Monday on "CBS This Morning," Assad denied responsibility for the Aug. 21 attack, accused the Obama administration of spreading lies without providing a "single shred of evidence," and warned that air strikes against his nation could bring retaliation. Pressed on what that might include, Assad responded, "I'm not fortune teller."

Later Monday, Syria's foreign minister, meeting with his Russian counterpart in Moscow, addressed the idea of getting rid of any chemical weapons.

"Syria welcomes the Russian proposal out of concern for the lives of the Syrian people, the security of our country and because it believes in the wisdom of the Russian leadership that seeks to avert American aggression against our people," said al-Moallem.

Kerry's comments came at a news conference with British Foreign Secretary William Hague and in response to a question about what, if anything, Assad could do to stop the U.S. from punishing it for the use of chemical weapons.

"Sure," Kerry replied. "He could turn over every single bit of his chemical weapons to the international community in the next week. Turn it over, all of it, without delay, and allow a full and total accounting for that. But he isn't about to do it, and it can't be done, obviously."

Traveling with Kerry, State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki tried to blunt the suggestion.

"Secretary Kerry was making a rhetorical argument about the impossibility and unlikelihood of Assad turning over chemical weapons he has denied he used," she said. "His point was that this brutal dictator with a history of playing fast and loose with the facts cannot be trusted to turn over chemical weapons otherwise he would have done so long ago."

And, in a speech, Obama's national security adviser Susan Rice reiterated that the president had decided it is in U.S. interests to carry out limited strikes.

Al-Moallem and Lavrov had not reacted to Kerry's comments when they spoke to reporters immediately after their meeting. But Lavrov appeared before television cameras several hours later to say Moscow would urge Syria to quickly place its chemical weapons under international control and then dismantle them.

"If the establishment of international control over chemical weapons in that country would allow avoiding strikes, we will immediately start working with Damascus," Lavrov said.

"We are calling on the Syrian leadership to not only agree on placing chemical weapons storage sites under international control, but also on its subsequent destruction and fully joining the treaty on prohibition of chemical weapons," he said.

Russia's proposal provided confirmation from Syria's most important international ally that the Syrian government possesses chemical weapons, and al-Moallem's welcome was a tacit acknowledgment. Syria's foreign ministry last year retracted a threat to use chemical weapons, saying it was not acknowledging that it had them.


So.. no strikes actually conducted yet, and if this goes through, they will have their desired effect without.. actually being conducted.

I seem to recall Sun Tzu having something to say on that.

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 Post subject: Re: War with Syria
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:59 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
I seem to recall Sun Tzu having something to say on that.


Dude... DE did you seriously just compare Obizzle to Sun Tzu: The greatest Tactician of all time to the tool who cannot listen to popular opinion?

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