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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:56 pm 
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Religion should not trump science, most importantly in the health care field, where people's health and well being are on the line. If you want to be a priest, go be a priest. If you want to treat people, leave your god at the door.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:57 pm 
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Which is more important, mental, emotional or physical health?


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 1:10 pm 
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since they're nearly inseperable and each intertwines with the other...


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 1:13 pm 
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Mental, emotional (really the same thing, I think? SG could probably say better), and physical health are all intimately related.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 1:45 pm 
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Is not religion/spiritual faith/etc not a key component of mental/emotional health?


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:38 pm 
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Does this person, apon becoming a doctor, plan to force people to use their services?

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:46 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
Does this person, apon becoming a doctor, plan to force people to use their services?


Counsellor. She's not planning on becoming a doctor. She's not even going to be in the medical field.

Monty does not get that mental health is not necessarily helped by telling a person that homosexual behavior is perfectly fine. If the person beleives it is not, this may be of no help to them.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:49 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Rynar wrote:
Does this person, apon becoming a doctor, plan to force people to use their services?


Counsellor. She's not planning on becoming a doctor. She's not even going to be in the medical field.

Monty does not get that mental health is not necessarily helped by telling a person that homosexual behavior is perfectly fine. If the person beleives it is not, this may be of no help to them.


Fine. Does this prospective mental health worker plan on forcing people to use her services?

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 10:05 am 
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Rynar wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
Rynar wrote:
Does this person, apon becoming a doctor, plan to force people to use their services?


Counsellor. She's not planning on becoming a doctor. She's not even going to be in the medical field.

Monty does not get that mental health is not necessarily helped by telling a person that homosexual behavior is perfectly fine. If the person beleives it is not, this may be of no help to them.


Fine. Does this prospective mental health worker plan on forcing people to use her services?


Do you really think you're going to get an answer?

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 Post subject: Re: Believe as we do!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 1:55 pm 
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Saddly, no.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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 Post subject: Re: Believe as we do!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:36 pm 
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Spoiler:
An Augusta State University counseling student has filed a lawsuit against her school claiming it violated her First Amendment rights when it told her to change her traditionalist Christian views on homosexuality or get out.

The Alliance Defense Fund filed suit Wednesday on behalf of Jennifer Keeton, 24, seeking to stop the school from expelling her from her master’s degree program.

“They made a cascading series of presumptions about the kind of a counselor she would be and have consequently … tried to force her to change her beliefs,” David French, the ADF attorney representing Keeting in the case, told The Daily Caller. “It’s symbolic of an educational system that has lost its way.”

The suit alleges the university retaliated against Keeton for stating her belief that homosexuality is a lifestyle choice and not a “state of being,” and that gender is not a social construct subject to individual change. According to the suit, the school wants her to undergo a “thought reform” program intended to change her religious beliefs. She faces expulsion unless she complies, and the suit seeks to block the university from throwing her out for noncompliance.

“Is saying there is such a thing as a male and a female as distinct, and that gender isn’t merely a social construct … such a dangerous position that it has to be banned from a profession?” French asked.

According to court documents, one of Keeton’s professors, Dr. Mary Jane Anderson-Wiley, told her this past May she would have to undergo a remediation program intended to change her views on homosexuality.

The university’s Counseling Education Program handbook proscribes such programs for those whose conduct is “not satisfactory on interpersonal or professional criteria unrelated to academic performance.

When Keeting received a copy of her program at a May 27 meeting, she saw the document questioned her ability to be a “multiculturally competent counselor” because she dissented from the prevailing view about homosexuality and tried to get others to see things her way.

It also warned her speech had violated various codes of ethics and her support for “conversion therapy for GLBTQ (Gay Lesbian Bisexual and Transgender) populations” departed from accepted norms of “psychological research.”

The National Association for Research & Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH), however, defends the practice Keeting advocated on its website and says many of the studies opponents of “conversion therapy” cite suffer from politically motivated biases and deliberately ignore contrary evidence.

The program also required her to attend at least three pro-gay sensitivity training courses by the end of this fall, read pro-gay peer-reviewed journals on GLBTQ issues, and participate in activities such as Augusta’s gay pride parade. She also was asked to familiarize herself with the Association of Lesbian Gay Bisexual and Transgender Issues in Counseling webpage, which defines homosexual behavior as healthy and suggests gender is a matter of personal choice rather than biology.

The professors also required her to submit a “two-page reflection” each month of how her participation in pro-gay activities “has influenced her beliefs” and how future clients might benefit from her experiences.

“There is no question they are putting her through a kind of thought-reform program when you think about what they are doing,” French said. “It’s a re-education program pure and simple, and it’s … the state trying to invade the human heart and human mind to change her deepest beliefs.”

He continued by noting, “It’s unconscionable.”

Anderson-Wiley reportedly complained about Keeting’s Christian belief that homosexuality is sinful and demanded she choose between her faith and the American Counseling Association’s Code of Ethics.

“You couldn’t be a teacher, let alone a counselor, with those views,” court documents quoted Dr. Paulette Schenck, another of the university’s counseling professors, as having said in response to Keeting’s affirmation of her Christian beliefs.

And Anderson-Wiley subsequently told Keeting the faculty wanted her to “alter some of her beliefs,” court documents say.

According to e-mails between Keeting and the professors, the faculty does not expect her to change her personal beliefs and values, but rather wants her to not expect others to share her values or impose them during her counseling sessions.

“This is the unethical part — applying your own personal beliefs and values on other people and not truly accepting that others can have different beliefs and values that are as equally valid as your own,” court documents say Schenck wrote in an e-mail exchange with Keeting.

The ACA would not immediately comment on the facts of the case, but released a statement clarifying its standards.

“The ACA Code of Ethics serves to ensure that counselors and counselors-in-training conduct themselves in a way which is consistent with the ideals of the profession. As such, the core values of diversity, multiculturalism and inclusion are present throughout the code and are crucial to the ethical decision-making process,” Erin Martz, ACA’s manager of ethics and professional standards wrote in an e-mailed statement.

According to French, the university crossed the line by mandating Keeting hold a certain set of beliefs.

“This is not the role of the state to be supervising their students’ religious beliefs, must less mandating their religious beliefs,” French said. “They certainly believe the values they hold trump her religious beliefs and that she should change her religious beliefs to match their beliefs…[It’s] fundamentally coercive.”

The courts have defined “religion” as a deeply held worldview that holds the same place in a person’s life as a conventional religion such as Christianity or Islam; consequently, an effort to require students to adhere to a certain worldview could potentially violate the Establishment Clause.

As a result, French said the university’s effort likely violates the Establishment Clause as well as the First Amendment’s free exercise clause.

“The left has been extremely upset by the fact that you would even see a picture of the 10 Commandments, or hear a prayer, or see a nativity scene,” French said. “None of those things are coercive. Here they are actually coercing students, they are actually saying, ‘Your religious beliefs disqualify you from this program, and to stay in this program you must alter your beliefs.’”

He continued, “They are going beyond censoring speech and stampeding straight to trying to change her heart and mind on religious issues and religious beliefs.”

Augusta State University would had not comment on the case, but spokeswoman Tunisia Williams told TheDC that her school does not deny students admission to programs because of “their personal religious persuasions.”


I disagree with the student. She will potentially be counseling people who are homosexual or transgendered, and there is danger that she would give them faulty advice based on her beliefs. Like it is stated in the article, if she wishes to retain her beliefs then she should not express them to others, especially the people she counsels.


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 Post subject: Re: Believe as we do!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:41 pm 
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Lex Luthor wrote:
She will potentially be counseling people who are homosexual or transgendered, and there is danger that she would give them faulty advice based on her beliefs.

Who has the authority to judge her beliefs, and have they found her beliefs faulty? Please, too, if you advocate for any particular authority, please reference the qualifications to that position.

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 Post subject: Re: Believe as we do!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:46 pm 
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Taskiss wrote:
Lex Luthor wrote:
She will potentially be counseling people who are homosexual or transgendered, and there is danger that she would give them faulty advice based on her beliefs.

Who has the authority to judge her beliefs, and have they found her beliefs faulty? Please, too, if you advocate for any particular authority, please reference the qualifications to that position.


From wikipedia...

Quote:
Professor Michael King states: "The conclusion reached by scientists who have investigated the origins and stability of sexual orientation is that it is a human characteristic that is formed early in life, and is resistant to change. Scientific evidence on the origins of homosexuality is considered relevant to theological and social debate because it undermines suggestions that sexual orientation is a choice."


I have the authority to judge her beliefs after seeing the facts. If she counsels a homosexual person and advises them that their orientation is just a choice, for example, then she is giving poor advice.


Last edited by Lex Luthor on Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Believe as we do!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:47 pm 
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Hopwin wrote:
Same if a doctor who was a Jehovah's Witness steered people away from surgery because blood transfusions are immoral.



Minor point -- I've read that the bloodless surgical procedures pioneered by the medical community specifically to treat JWs tend to have higher success ratios and fewer complications than traditional surgery (if only because surgeons can do sloppier work and not worry about it if they can always grab a bag of O-negative when they cut too deeply...although there are more reasons than that.) There are still a select few treatments that simply cannot be done at all without blood, so it's not like JWs are at lower risk for not accepting it, but surgeons who have done work on JWs where blood is not an option at all often tend to end up viewing other non-JW surgery as "we'll only use blood if absolutely necessary," since the tradition of using it as a surgical-crutch is not necessarily a healthy approach, either.

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 Post subject: Re: Believe as we do!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:47 pm 
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Lex Luthor wrote:
From wikipedia...

Quote:
Professor Michael King states: "The conclusion reached by scientists who have investigated the origins and stability of sexual orientation is that it is a human characteristic that is formed early in life, and is resistant to change. Scientific evidence on the origins of homosexuality is considered relevant to theological and social debate because it undermines suggestions that sexual orientation is a choice."


The facts have the authority to judge her beliefs. If she counsels a homosexual person and advises them that their orientation is just a choice, for example, then she is giving poor advice.



I bet I can find journals countering that evidence.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:50 pm 
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Uncle Fester wrote:
It is the Multicultural Animal farm. All beliefs are equal, just some are more equal then others.


Beliefs backed by scientific evidence are superior to those which are not.


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 Post subject: Re: Believe as we do!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 2:14 pm 
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Lex Luthor wrote:
Taskiss wrote:
Lex Luthor wrote:
She will potentially be counseling people who are homosexual or transgendered, and there is danger that she would give them faulty advice based on her beliefs.

Who has the authority to judge her beliefs, and have they found her beliefs faulty? Please, too, if you advocate for any particular authority, please reference the qualifications to that position.


From wikipedia...

Quote:
Professor Michael King states: "The conclusion reached by scientists who have investigated the origins and stability of sexual orientation is that it is a human characteristic that is formed early in life, and is resistant to change. Scientific evidence on the origins of homosexuality is considered relevant to theological and social debate because it undermines suggestions that sexual orientation is a choice."


I have the authority to judge her beliefs after seeing the facts. If she counsels a homosexual person and advises them that their orientation is just a choice, for example, then she is giving poor advice.
So, you'd advocate that anyone can pick some comment by whatever supposedly authoritative academic source and use it to authoritatively judge another persons beliefs?

Seems to be exactly what fallacies are made of, there, Lex.

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 Post subject: Re: Believe as we do!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:14 pm 
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I disagree with the student. She will potentially be counseling people who are homosexual or transgendered, and there is danger that she would give them faulty advice based on her beliefs. Like it is stated in the article, if she wishes to retain her beliefs then she should not express them to others, especially the people she counsels.


There's a danger she would give faulty advice to people who think homosexuality is morally wrong, if she changed her beliefs.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:59 pm 
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Don't go there Lex, for some people their beliefs trump scientific evidence.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 4:35 pm 
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Hopwin wrote:
Don't go there Lex, for some people their beliefs trump scientific evidence.


I'll ask again: Does this prospective mental health worker plan on forcing people to use her services?

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:29 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
Hopwin wrote:
Don't go there Lex, for some people their beliefs trump scientific evidence.


I'll ask again: Does this prospective mental health worker plan on forcing people to use her services?

I will counter by asking, is she going to put up a sign outside her office warning people that she counsels to her personal beliefs in lieu of science?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:34 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
Hopwin wrote:
Don't go there Lex, for some people their beliefs trump scientific evidence.


I'll ask again: Does this prospective mental health worker plan on forcing people to use her services?


This is besides the point. Without bothering to reread the article, I am assuming this is some sort of certification. The certification carries with it a responsibility to act accordingly... for example a certified doctor should not tell people the devil lives inside them.


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 Post subject: Re: Believe as we do!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:51 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
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I disagree with the student. She will potentially be counseling people who are homosexual or transgendered, and there is danger that she would give them faulty advice based on her beliefs. Like it is stated in the article, if she wishes to retain her beliefs then she should not express them to others, especially the people she counsels.


There's a danger she would give faulty advice to people who think homosexuality is morally wrong, if she changed her beliefs.


It is more important that she gives them advice based on facts than unsubstantiated beliefs. It is ok if they think homosexuality is morally wrong, but they should at least know it's not the homosexual person's choice.


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 Post subject: Re: Believe as we do!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:59 pm 
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Lex Luthor wrote:
It is ok if they think homosexuality is morally wrong, but they should at least know it's not the homosexual person's choice.


LOL


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 Post subject: Re: Believe as we do!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:23 pm 
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If homosexuality is a choice, then it's a "choice" on the same level that choosing to quit smoking is. Why would any rational person choose to be gay?


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