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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:12 pm 
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darksiege wrote:
and I rest my case... if you are a liberal it is okay, and if you are conservative you are the debbil.

Thank you Monte.


How can you rationally conclude that from what I have written. I have never condoned any calls for violence from the left. Those guys outside the one polling place in ohio (not polling places, as Kaffis seems to imply)? They never laid a hand on anyone. That guy in the Unitarian church murdered two people unrepentantly because they were liberals. Do you honestly believe these things were morally equivalent?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:43 am 
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Monte wrote:
You misrepresent that situation. While they were assholes for standing there, their stated purpose was to protect people from being disenfranchised, as they were in the 2004 election in Ohio.


Aside from the fact that they weren't disenfranchised in Ohio in 2004, standing outside a polling place with a nightstick is clearly an attempt at intimidation. It does nothing whatsoever to protect people from disenfranchisement unless they are overtly being turned away from the polling place. Since that wasn't happening, nor was there any good reason to think it was going to happen at that polling place, no one is misrepresenting that situation except for the 2 guys claiming to protect people from disenfranchisement.

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Because, of course, there was *no* antagonism from the screamers there. Nope, none at all.


So you admit there was no antagonism, and even if there was, since when does that justify assault.

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I'll see your non violent thugs and your instigated brawls and raise you dead people in a Unitarian church, and dead cops gunned down by someone who had been convinced by the NRA that Obama was coming to take their guns away. Or, if you want to just match up, we can talk about Michelle Bachmann's repeated calls for armed revolution. We can talk about the Tea Party protestors and their calls to water the tree of liberty with the blood of patriots and tyrants. Or the guys carrying loaded assault rifles to "peaceful" health care rallies. How about the conservative preachers openly praying for the President's death?


What dead cops, and what does the unitarian church murder have to do with anything? It's been pointed out repeatedly that this guy was acting completely on his own, attempts to link his actions to others by the SPLC fact-manipulation crew notwithstanding. As for the Tea Party, bringing a weapon, loaded or otherwise, does not come up to the level of actually hitting someone.

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The truth is, even the worst on the left don't hold a candle to what he Right considers to be their bread and butter. Open calls for violence are casual and common on right wing outlets. Comparisons to Nazi Germany are almost like verbs in the rantings of the most prominent conservative commentators.


Calls for violence are neither casual nor common on the right, and a comparison of government practice to the nazis, crass as it may be, is not relevant to the issue of violence.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:19 am 
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Lydiaa wrote:
The trick to learn here though is to close your boarders and ensure there are no cameras (or commit them before it was invented).

Man, my dream of being a dictator is becoming harder and harder by the day >.<


Actually, the trick is to ally yourself with the eventual winner of a bigger conflict. I still say that if Hitler had come to power a decade later he might have gotten away with the Holocaust. I mean, I'd wager the majority of college graduates don't even know what the Holodomor is, despite the fact that it probably killed more than the Holocaust.

As long as he let the US install missiles in Germany to point at the USSR, massacres, land-grabs, and other atrocities would have been overlooked. They certainly were all over the world when it came to other fascist dictators. Invaded Poland? Well, better fascist than communist.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:58 am 
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Xequecal wrote:
I mean, I'd wager the majority of college graduates don't even know what the Holodomor is, despite the fact that it probably killed more than the Holocaust.


This is likely. It should be noted, however, that the Holodomor appears, historically, to have been an unintential consequence of some absolutely terrible economic policy decisions. As much as we like to vilify Josef Stalin (because he really was a villain!), an unbiased look at history shows that "genocide" to really have been a colossal **** of bad choices with unexpected consequences, compounded by lies and coverups. This doesn't make any difference to the 2-10 million people who starved to death, but we do recognize intent as a determining factor in criminal law. Hitler was the bigger monster.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:19 am 
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http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1179231/black_panthers_intimidate_voters_in.html

Philadelphia is not located in Ohio.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:42 pm 
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Talya wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
I mean, I'd wager the majority of college graduates don't even know what the Holodomor is, despite the fact that it probably killed more than the Holocaust.


This is likely. It should be noted, however, that the Holodomor appears, historically, to have been an unintential consequence of some absolutely terrible economic policy decisions. As much as we like to vilify Josef Stalin (because he really was a villain!), an unbiased look at history shows that "genocide" to really have been a colossal **** of bad choices with unexpected consequences, compounded by lies and coverups. This doesn't make any difference to the 2-10 million people who starved to death, but we do recognize intent as a determining factor in criminal law. Hitler was the bigger monster.



Interesting article on exactly that topic:

http://reason.com/blog/2009/11/02/littl ... today-abou

Key part of the article wrote:
The media's fleeting attention to the momentous events of the late 1980s and early 1990s matched their earlier indifference to communist systems. There is little public awareness of the large-scale atrocities, killings and human rights violations that occurred in communist states, especially compared with awareness of the Holocaust and Nazism (which led to to far fewer deaths). The number of documentaries, feature films or television programs about communist societies is minuscule compared with those on Nazi Germany and/or the Holocaust, and few universities offer courses on the remaining or former communist states. For most Americans, communism and its various incarnations remained an abstraction.

The different moral responses to Nazism and communism in the West can be interpreted as a result of the perception of communist atrocities as byproducts of noble intentions that were hard to realize without resorting to harsh measures. The Nazi outrages, by contrast, are perceived as unmitigated evil lacking in any lofty justification and unsupported by an attractive ideology. There is far more physical evidence and information about the Nazi mass murders, and Nazi methods of extermination were highly premeditated and repugnant, whereas many victims of communist systems died because of lethal living conditions in their places of detention. Most of the victims of communism were not killed by advanced industrial techniques.

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