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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:05 pm 
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Colphax wrote:
One of the most interesting arguments against a biblical flood is simply that there isn't enough water on the earth to completely submerge all of the Earth's continental landmasses. The amount of water on the earth is essentially a constant value, so if there ain't enough to do it now, there wasn't enough to do it back then. I think it was some History Channel program about the Noah story that I saw it on.
Well... yes and no. The History Channel should be taken with a grain of salt. They aired this crap as if it were a credible theory.

The statement isn't entirely accurate for a few reasons. (Perhaps I should say it's misleading, rather than that it isn't accurate). DE pointed out one of them already. The whole world doesn't have to actually flood when your concept of "the whole world" is limited to a region the size of Arizona or Nevada. Furthermore, at various times in Earth's history there has been more or less "land" to work with. This brings us back to the "yes" part. In order to show that, we have to do away with the notion that the Earth is only 6,000 years old. The idea that there has been enough water to flood the planet rules out Noah's Ark as described in the Bible by the Cult of the Carpenter. (Since we're now trying to decide what a real religion is, apparently).

Volcanic activity produces two chief types of rock depending on how quickly it cools: basalt and granite. Granite "floats" and basalt "sinks." Bear in mind, we're talking about rocks, so basalt doesn't plummet to the bottom over the span of a minute or two. It has to work its way down through all of the granite. What is produced depends on (among other things) how quickly the lava cools, although I forget what conditions causes each to form. It's important to remember that volcanic activity is not limited to eruptions like Mt. St. Helens. There's a lot of volcanic activity occurring underground, which is the mark of a healthy planet. (Mars is considered a dead planet because its volcanic activity has stopped).

This gives our planet the structure we all know and love. When you get basalt piled up from volcanic activity, with granite stacked on top of it, you get an island. If you were to have a huge pile of basalt with granite stacked on top, say from a rift in the Earth's surface spewing magma into the ocean, you get continents. Now, we know that if we pile a bunch of dirt and rock up, we had to get it from somewhere - we're left with a big hole. Water tends to fill up holes, not cover hills.

Well, what if more of our volcanic activity was producing a different type of rock? The one that sank instead of floated. Plate movements regularly carry both granite and basalt down to the core, only now more basalt is forming compared to granite. Remember that basalt "sinks" while granite "floats." So what you have is the ground getting lower, while the ocean floor is getting higher. Where does all that water go? Your oceans aren't as deep anymore, but they cover more of the planet's surface. You've still got rocks sticking up out of the water, and there may even be more of them, but they aren't as big.

Now we need to think about the drifting of tectonic plates. Remember the notion of Pangaea? Well, plate tectonics suggests that Pangaea wasn't the first time all of the Earth's "land" was clumped together in one spot. In fact, it suggests that there is a regular cycle where supercontinents form and break up. This is even thought to have been essential to the emergence of life on the planet. During a supercontinent phase, more of the Earth's surface is covered with water because the land mass is pushing together and forming mountains. The increased surface area also increases water evaporation, and leads to increased cloud cover and rainfall which cooled down the planet. A complete cycle is supposed to take 300 million to 500 million years.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:15 pm 
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Mars isn't considered volcanically inactive that I know about.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcanism_on_Mars
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Martian volcanic features range in age from Noachian (>3.7 billion years) to late Amazonian (< 500 million years), indicating that the planet has been volcanically active throughout its history and probably still is so today.


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Scientists have never recorded an active volcano eruption on the surface of Mars,[46] however, the European Space Agency's Mars Express orbiter photographed lava flows that must have occurred within the past two million years, suggesting a relatively recent geologic activity.


Last edited by TheRiov on Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:19 pm 
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Corolinth wrote:
The idea that there has been enough water to flood the planet rules out Noah's Ark as described in the Bible by the Cult of the Carpenter. (Since we're now trying to decide what a real religion is, apparently).


Not to nitpick but you were right before the correction. Genesis is firmly in the Bible (when I say bible I'm generally referring to the book the Israelites consider their sacred scripture, that was adopted and included along side the Christian Holy book, the New Testament. Unless you're ONLY referring to the Christian version of the same work, in which case you use the term Old Testament.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:42 pm 
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I made the edit because it looked like the denigrate other religions game was starting, and I wanted to play.

The Mars thing is interesting, though. I had read that it was dead, although that may have been in reference to surface activity.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 1:05 pm 
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One thing that always stuck with me from the comparative religions class was the similarities in the explanation of creation. Even some of the lesser followed religions, that developed prior to or without the influence of Abraham had similar stories.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:17 pm 
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Squirrel Girl wrote:
Rynar wrote:
I'm not Arathain, but I'll go ahead an give my answer. Grades 9-12, in a Catholic High School.


For me it was much later, as a scout leader, when my son was 10.

And I note a high percentage of Catholics on this forum. (I was also raised Catholic.) Interesting.

<--- Not Catlick. Raised Southern Baptits, went to private and public schools, couldn't get away from The Bible Ladies (this group of women who were inexplicably officially associated with the school, and held Bible study classes during school hours.

They vanished as time wore on (and, I assume, the spectres of illegality reared their heads), but they were definitely not an optional attendance.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:31 pm 
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Corolinth wrote:
Colphax wrote:
One of the most interesting arguments against a biblical flood is simply that there isn't enough water on the earth to completely submerge all of the Earth's continental landmasses. The amount of water on the earth is essentially a constant value, so if there ain't enough to do it now, there wasn't enough to do it back then. I think it was some History Channel program about the Noah story that I saw it on.
Well... yes and no. The History Channel should be taken with a grain of salt. They aired this crap as if it were a credible theory.

The statement isn't entirely accurate for a few reasons. (Perhaps I should say it's misleading, rather than that it isn't accurate). DE pointed out one of them already. The whole world doesn't have to actually flood when your concept of "the whole world" is limited to a region the size of Arizona or Nevada. Furthermore, at various times in Earth's history there has been more or less "land" to work with. This brings us back to the "yes" part. In order to show that, we have to do away with the notion that the Earth is only 6,000 years old. The idea that there has been enough water to flood the planet rules out Noah's Ark as described in the Bible by the Cult of the Carpenter. (Since we're now trying to decide what a real religion is, apparently).

Volcanic activity produces two chief types of rock depending on how quickly it cools: basalt and granite. Granite "floats" and basalt "sinks." Bear in mind, we're talking about rocks, so basalt doesn't plummet to the bottom over the span of a minute or two. It has to work its way down through all of the granite. What is produced depends on (among other things) how quickly the lava cools, although I forget what conditions causes each to form. It's important to remember that volcanic activity is not limited to eruptions like Mt. St. Helens. There's a lot of volcanic activity occurring underground, which is the mark of a healthy planet. (Mars is considered a dead planet because its volcanic activity has stopped).

This gives our planet the structure we all know and love. When you get basalt piled up from volcanic activity, with granite stacked on top of it, you get an island. If you were to have a huge pile of basalt with granite stacked on top, say from a rift in the Earth's surface spewing magma into the ocean, you get continents. Now, we know that if we pile a bunch of dirt and rock up, we had to get it from somewhere - we're left with a big hole. Water tends to fill up holes, not cover hills.

Well, what if more of our volcanic activity was producing a different type of rock? The one that sank instead of floated. Plate movements regularly carry both granite and basalt down to the core, only now more basalt is forming compared to granite. Remember that basalt "sinks" while granite "floats." So what you have is the ground getting lower, while the ocean floor is getting higher. Where does all that water go? Your oceans aren't as deep anymore, but they cover more of the planet's surface. You've still got rocks sticking up out of the water, and there may even be more of them, but they aren't as big.

Now we need to think about the drifting of tectonic plates. Remember the notion of Pangaea? Well, plate tectonics suggests that Pangaea wasn't the first time all of the Earth's "land" was clumped together in one spot. In fact, it suggests that there is a regular cycle where supercontinents form and break up. This is even thought to have been essential to the emergence of life on the planet. During a supercontinent phase, more of the Earth's surface is covered with water because the land mass is pushing together and forming mountains. The increased surface area also increases water evaporation, and leads to increased cloud cover and rainfall which cooled down the planet. A complete cycle is supposed to take 300 million to 500 million years.


Erm...that's a rather interesting, yet ultimately pointless post, Coro. The problem with it (for the whole world flood argument, I've already acknowledged DE's allegorical refutation and the "limited" whole world argument) is that the amount of water present on the earth has been calculated, in all of its forms in the cycle. Here's a page from the USGS about it. Yeah, holes get filled and plate tectonics moves the continents around. It changes nothing, because it still takes more than three times the amount of water present on the earth to create a sphere where Mount Everest is covered by water. This (creationist) site has a nice section that shows the calculations.

Not understanding the crack about "deciding what a real religion is" if it was directed at me. I'm not interested in that game, personally. Its kinda hard to talk about the fact that the Great Flood story is in a lot of traditions (it's even in the Gilgamesh epic) without using the term "myth", which I was trying to avoid.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:36 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
One thing that always stuck with me from the comparative religions class was the similarities in the explanation of creation. Even some of the lesser followed religions, that developed prior to or without the influence of Abraham had similar stories.

Austailian Dreamtime has a few Genesis sounding sounding stories

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:50 pm 
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TheRiov wrote:
"real religions" ?


Come now. Clearly, some people's made-up superstitious mythological bullshit is more valid than others!

Oh, you still have your foreskin. We're not supposed to talk to you, you're unclean!

Anyway, the common argument about the worldwide flood is that prior to the flood, the earth was much...flatter. Fewer marine trenches, lower mountains -- if you levelled out all the land area on earth, the water would, of course, cover it all. It's geologically utter crap, but hey, God's omnipotent, right?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:55 pm 
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Hay guyz lets take parables and blow em out of proportion because a few nutjobs are vocal about it.

Seriously folks, what is with some of your vendettas against religions?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:58 pm 
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Hannibal wrote:
Seriously folks, what is with some of your vendettas against religions?


Well, despite that in this thread I've been arguing on religion's side, for once...do you really want to get into this one? I could give you plenty of very good reasons for vendettas against religions.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:05 pm 
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Hannibal wrote:
Hay guyz lets take parables and blow em out of proportion because a few nutjobs are vocal about it.

Seriously folks, what is with some of your vendettas against religions?


Because I prefer science and rational thought.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:39 pm 
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Squirrel Girl wrote:
Rynar wrote:
I'm not Arathain, but I'll go ahead an give my answer. Grades 9-12, in a Catholic High School.


For me it was much later, as a scout leader, when my son was 10.

And I note a high percentage of Catholics on this forum. (I was also raised Catholic.) Interesting.


I am not now, nor have I ever been, Catholic. I went for the education and athletics.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:44 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
Squirrel Girl wrote:
Rynar wrote:
I'm not Arathain, but I'll go ahead an give my answer. Grades 9-12, in a Catholic High School.


For me it was much later, as a scout leader, when my son was 10.

And I note a high percentage of Catholics on this forum. (I was also raised Catholic.) Interesting.


I am not now, nor have I ever been, Catholic. I went for the education and athletics.


I went for the uniforms.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:45 pm 
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Hannibal wrote:
Hay guyz lets take parables and blow em out of proportion because a few nutjobs are vocal about it.

Seriously folks, what is with some of your vendettas against religions?

What Müs said, to a degree. I don't have a problem with people believing whatever they wanna believe in. I have a problem with people thrusting their beliefs upon me whether I believe in them or not. I have a problem with people trying to inject non-science into scientific curricula. Creationism is not science. Intelligent design is not science. Both require assumptions that can not be tested, therefore they are philosophy, at best.

The ironic thing is that, as an agnostic, I actually believe in intelligent design. But teaching it has no place in a science course. You just cannot test or prove the existence of any sort of supreme being at this point in time. I have absolutely no objection to teaching ID in a non-science course.

I don't agree with rabid, foaming at the mouth, litigation happy atheists. They are just as bad as rabid, foaming at the mouth, litigation happy believers.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:56 pm 
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Colphax wrote:
I actually believe in intelligent design. But teaching it has no place in a science course.

Again, this (minus the agnostic part, hence the trim).


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:31 pm 
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I don't hate all religions, just yours.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:40 pm 
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I don't hate religion. Rather the opposite. I am fascinated by them. I am also fascinated by various Faiths ( I'm drawing a distinction between Faith and Religion)

I do find some of the tenants of some of them a little hypocritical, but there is hypocrisy everywhere.

But I draw the line as soon as someone starts trying to use their faith to impose their will on others. I am more than happy to engage in a free exchange of ideas as long as the statements are all understood to be prefaced with the words, "As I believe" The problem comes in when others use their faith to justify the condemnation, persecution, or outright discrimination of others. When Someone else's faith is the only thing allowed to frame the discussion. Or when they try to use psuedo-science to justify their faith. Honestly you'll get my respect by saying, "Science be damned, I choose to believe X" --but when someone attempts to use abuse or co-opt some misunderstanding of the universe can claim it's science, thats when I throw down.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:46 am 
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Rynar wrote:
I am not now, nor have I ever been, Catholic. I went for the education and athletics.


But stayed for the molestation!


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:14 am 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Rynar wrote:
I am not now, nor have I ever been, Catholic. I went for the education and athletics.


But stayed for the molestation!


ALOL!


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:14 am 
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TheRiov wrote:
Stop being offensive.


Wait - you're the one that posted the OP comic!

/headexplode


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 1:01 pm 
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TheRiov wrote:
But I draw the line as soon as someone starts trying to use their faith to impose their will on others.

Those lacking faith are as guilty of that as those who hold to a faith.

Believing that oneself (or any other human) is the final authority is no less an impediment to rationality than those finding cause to believe in a dieity as the final authority.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 2:09 pm 
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Taskiss wrote:
Believing that oneself (or any other human) is the final authority is no less an impediment to rationality than those finding cause to believe in a dieity as the final authority.


There's a strawman argument in there that science and rational thought do not make.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 2:22 am 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
TheRiov wrote:
Stop being offensive.


Wait - you're the one that posted the OP comic!

/headexplode


It never fails that people use the "I'm very tolerant, I have nothing against religion or people of faith, except when they shove it in my face" in an attempt to explain why they instigated the whole thing.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:02 pm 
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