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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:28 pm 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
I'm just going to put this out there.

Income equality doesn't promote wealth equality. It just suppresses class mobility. Because high incomes are how you elevate your wealth and climb the social strata ladder. Trying to create income equality doesn't help the middle class -- it dooms the middle class to never advance and become part of the upper class.


Actually there's plenty of evidence out there that shows that several more socialist countries have far greater mobility than we do in the US.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:59 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
Kaffis Mark V wrote:
I'm just going to put this out there.

Income equality doesn't promote wealth equality. It just suppresses class mobility. Because high incomes are how you elevate your wealth and climb the social strata ladder. Trying to create income equality doesn't help the middle class -- it dooms the middle class to never advance and become part of the upper class.


Actually there's plenty of evidence out there that shows that several more socialist countries have far greater mobility than we do in the US.


If there's plenty then you won't have any trouble backing that up. Right?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:35 pm 
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A couple links to get you started, DFK:

At least five large studies in recent years have found the United States to be less mobile than comparable nations. A project led by Markus Jantti, an economist at a Swedish university, found that 42 percent of American men raised in the bottom fifth of incomes stay there as adults. That shows a level of persistent disadvantage much higher than in Denmark (25 percent) and Britain (30 percent) — a country famous for its class constraints. Meanwhile, just 8 percent of American men at the bottom rose to the top fifth. That compares with 12 percent of the British and 14 percent of the Danes. Despite frequent references to the United States as a classless society, about 62 percent of Americans (male and female) raised in the top fifth of incomes stay in the top two-fifths, according to research by the Economic Mobility Project of the Pew Charitable Trusts. Similarly, 65 percent born in the bottom fifth stay in the bottom two-fifths.

NY Times wrote:
But many researchers have reached a conclusion that turns conventional wisdom on its head: Americans enjoy less economic mobility than their peers in Canada and much of Western Europe. The mobility gap has been widely discussed in academic circles, but a sour season of mass unemployment and street protests has moved the discussion toward center stage.

Former Senator Rick Santorum of Pennsylvania, a Republican candidate for president, warned this fall that movement “up into the middle income is actually greater, the mobility in Europe, than it is in America.” National Review, a conservative thought leader, wrote that “most Western European and English-speaking nations have higher rates of mobility.” Even Representative Paul D. Ryan, a Wisconsin Republican who argues that overall mobility remains high, recently wrote that “mobility from the very bottom up” is “where the United States lags behind.”

Liberal commentators have long emphasized class, but the attention on the right is largely new. “It’s becoming conventional wisdom that the U.S. does not have as much mobility as most other advanced countries,” said Isabel V. Sawhill, an economist at the Brookings Institution. “I don’t think you’ll find too many people who will argue with that.”

...

At least five large studies in recent years have found the United States to be less mobile than comparable nations. A project led by Markus Jantti, an economist at a Swedish university, found that 42 percent of American men raised in the bottom fifth of incomes stay there as adults. That shows a level of persistent disadvantage much higher than in Denmark (25 percent) and Britain (30 percent) — a country famous for its class constraints. Meanwhile, just 8 percent of American men at the bottom rose to the top fifth. That compares with 12 percent of the British and 14 percent of the Danes.

Despite frequent references to the United States as a classless society, about 62 percent of Americans (male and female) raised in the top fifth of incomes stay in the top two-fifths, according to research by the Economic Mobility Project of the Pew Charitable Trusts. Similarly, 65 percent born in the bottom fifth stay in the bottom two-fifths.

By emphasizing the influence of family background, the studies not only challenge American identity but speak to the debate about inequality. While liberals often complain that the United States has unusually large income gaps, many conservatives have argued that the system is fair because mobility is especially high, too: everyone can climb the ladder. Now the evidence suggests that America is not only less equal, but also less mobile.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:18 pm 
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It's far easier to move into higher economic categories when you're artificially restricting how high those categories are in the absolute sense. The comment about Britain is particularly amusing; it talks about the British class system and the U.S. being supposedly less mobile... and completely ignores the fact that the British class ssytem is social, not economic, and while the two are related, they are hardly inextricably tied together. Impoverished nobles have been far from uncommon in British history, while wealthy tradesmen and merchants who were "commoners" (Ebenezer Scrooge, to take a fictional example) were common as well.

It should also be pointed out that education is a key factor in economic mobility, and our education system is overfunded for underperformance. The U.S. is tied with Switzerland for first place in per-student spending, but our schools still suck, and meanwhile we emphasize credential inflation as the road to success.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:15 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
It's far easier to move into higher economic categories when you're artificially restricting how high those categories are in the absolute sense.

Rich Europeans are pretty damn high in the absolute sense as well. No real difference with the US there.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:22 pm 
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"Rich" Europeans are, but they're making a comparison based on the top 20%, not the top 1%, 2% or even 5%. In the U.S., the top quintile starts at around $91,000. While that's far indeed from poor, it's also not rich by even the wildest exaggerations, nor even close to rich. $250,000 puts you at the top of the middle class/bottom of the rich in common parlance, but even that is not "rich" in the sense of the truly wealthy.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:02 am 
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Most "comparable" nations don't have a schooling system strangled by unions.

The unions fight tooth and nail against a German style system even though its proven to cost less for better results.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:04 am 
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I was not sure to include this here or in its own thread, so here it is.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/12/03 ... latestnews

Spoiler:
The latest revolt against France's aristocracy is all about ... homework.

President Francois Hollande, the socialist leader swept into office in May, has targeted homework as bestowing an unfair advantage on the rich, and his solution is to eliminate it for all elementary and junior high school students. But the plan is drawing criticism from the very folks it was supposed to help – poor people. And education experts aren't so keen on it either, saying underprivileged kids need the structure and purpose that homework provides.

"Poor people want homework because they know that school is very important, and the only chance — the only possibility — they have to give their children a better life is if their children succeed at school," Emmanuel Davidenkoff, editor-in-chief of L'Etudiant, a magazine and website devoted to French school and education, told NPR.

Hollande reasons that homework favors wealthy families because they are more likely to have the time and ability to support and supervise their children’s after-school efforts. The unorthodox plan is part of a bigger effort aimed at making primary and secondary school more enjoyable for children and comes as the country falls behind other industrialized nations – including the U.S. – in reading and science.

“Education is priority,” Hollande said in an October speech at Paris’s Sorbonne University. “An education program is, by definition, a societal program. Work should be done at school, rather than at home.”

Students in France attend classes four days a week, but the school day is long and instruction is typically rote. French school is a grind, according to Peter Gumbel, author of a scathing book on the education system in France.

"There's an enormous amount of pressure, and it's no fun whatsoever,” Gumbel said.

But simply surrendering the idea of homework may not be a good idea, according to some experts. Guy Winch, a psychologist who has written about homework in the American system recently wrote in Psychology Today that educators must strike a balance to ensure healthy childhood development.

“One easy guideline to keep in mind is that children should be assigned no more than 10 minutes a day of homework per grade level,” Winch wrote. “A sixth grader should be doing no more than an hour of homework a day, and a senior in high school should have no more than two hours a day of homework.”

Duke University Professor Harris Cooper, an expert on child development, told FoxNews.com Hollande's plan is more likely to hurt poor kids than help them.

"Disadvantaged kids have fewer resources for learning outside school, so removing homework might actually widen the achievement gap, not narrow it," said Cooper, chairman of the school's Department of Psychology and Neuroscience. "There are much better ways to close the achievement gap."



Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/12/03 ... z2E51fc25m


TLDR version: only those dirty Rich Folks can properly supervise their children to make sure homework is done, there for there will be no more homework in an effort to close an achievment gap...

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:42 am 
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So of course those people will still make their kids do the little extras that make them achieve better grades... which will widen the gap even further. Do these administrators really think that relieving the burden of homework is the cure?

They are purposely ignoring the social problem because they've been neutered by political correctness

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:58 am 
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I'm honestly surprised this hasn't happened in California already.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:40 am 
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Quote:
"Poor people want homework because they know that school is very important, and the only chance — the only possibility — they have to give their children a better life is if their children succeed at school," Emmanuel Davidenkoff, editor-in-chief of L'Etudiant, a magazine and website devoted to French school and education, told NPR.


I wonder if France would be willing to trade education andministrators and poor populations with us?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:29 pm 
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Economic mobility comparisons are fraught with disaster, especially when you consider that the United States has the most progressive tax system in the world. There's a great irony in your choice of arguments, here, RD and Aizle ...

The only way to make the United States more socialist is to normalize everything to some common denominator that does not exist in the Eurotopia you think is out there.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:44 am 
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I think the tax that government collect mostly spend on the project that are started in other countries.Rather than to invest here for the development of our country.And in current situation it is impossible for middle person to pay tax because most of them are unemployed.


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