The Glade 4.0

is it in the new new testament or the new new new super secret probation new testament*

*now in grape cherry and orange flavor

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Darksiege
Traveller, Calé, Whisperer
Lead me not into temptation; for I know a shortcut

I'm surprised it took this long for the Jennings smears to happen here.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

Not true. You just have to look at the voting habits of college professors and college graduates to see it is an endemic problem.

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God does not need to change in order to do things differently after Christ has come. After all, He had planned that from the very beginning.

The second part of your sentence is both ridiculous in asking someone to prove a negative and irrelevant.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Diamondeye, do you think we demonstrate to the world the love of God, when you and I are frequently going at each other? Did not Christ pray (in John 17) that His followers would be one, as He and the Father are one? I say this to our shame, but I also see the truth of Scripture confirmed:



Since we both cannot be right, one of us must be wrong. Let us take a stab at it being me that is wrong. If that is so, then give me sound doctrine from the Scriptures, Diamondeye. Do the work of an evangelist. Be ready in and out of season to give me an answer for the hope that lies within you. " ... teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you;..."

After all, "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."

Don't give me the arguments of the world, Diamondeye. Show me that I am wrong from the Scriptures. If you do not, then are you not disobedient to the command given by Christ in Matthew 28:20? Show me the Scriptures. Back up what you say with Scriptural proof.

We have gone at this from the other side, you know. I have shown you from the Scriptures where you err, and you dismiss it as out of context, or by using the arguments of the world, which are irrelevant, or by citing church tradition, etc, etc.

So I'm throwing the gauntlet down here. If I am wrong about my faith, if my doctrine is wrong, if I am the one with itching ears who will not endure sound doctrine, prove it to me from the Scriptures.

Since I don't see any real reason to think you are sincere in your willingness to accept the idea that you may be wrong, I'm not going to waste my time. It ultimately doesn't matter what I show you with or without Scripture because you're too fundamentally afraid to question your own ideas.

It's just another example of you simply proclaiming yourself righteous and everyone who disagrees with you wrong, and relying on snippets to support it. All you're doing here is trying to dress it up in the appearance of willingness to listen when in reality it doesn't matter what I point out in Scripture. You're simply going to dismiss it based on your idea that your approach to whatever it says is right and mine is wrong, cite a few more passages to support it which are also picked based on your same ideas and simply proclaim yourself correct.. again.

My refusal to engage you in this manner is hardly disobediant... After all, one must not cast their pearls before swine.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Kinda what I expected. You can sit there and pronounce to everyone here how wrong I am, but when I call you on it, you get a yellow streak down your back. You don't have the strength of Scripture to back you up, you don't have any sound doctrine from Scripture to show me.

I'll thank you to quit pretending you can instruct me. On anything.

Get used to disappointment then. Any jackass can see you're just trying to score rhetorical points, both with your so-called "challange" and with this latest reply. This is just a ploy to make your own ideas about Scripture appear authoritative, and not a particularly clever one at that.

Seriously, you didn't even make it clear precisely what idea I'm supposed to be proving you wrong about. Before I would set about proving you wrong about something I'd need to know what that might be, and what your position is on it in some considerable detail.

Instead you've just asked me to "prove you wrong" on nothing in particular. Of course, were I to be so foolish as to try to do so the topic would quickly become whatever you needed it to be and shift accordingly, as would your position on it.

This is just a trick to make it look like I'm chickening out on something when it's really just you trying to score points. It's not even a very good one. Only a child would fall for something so transparently obvious.

When you've formulated a specific position on a specific issue regarding Scripture, maybe I'll consider contesting it then if it happens to be one I disagree with.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Then I'll consider this a clean slate. From this point on, unless your disagreement with any position I take on God/Christian/doctrinal/etc matters is backed up with Scriptural proof, I consider your position to have no more weight than any of the non-believers on this board.

Don't waste time telling me I am wrong on these issues until you are willing to offer Scriptural proof.

Scripture does not exist in a vaccuum. If you're wrong (which you generally are on such matters) you'll be told. It doesn't really matter whether you grant me any weight because you're not determining anything. I don't discuss these issues with you for your benefit; I discuss them so that other people can see that your ideas are not representative of Christianity in general (thankfully).

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Actually, as often as not, you parrot whatever the world wants to believe. That is not Christianity at all. Like it or not, Christ bifurcated the world, between those on the side of truth and those not. Too often, what you type is of the world, not of Christ. Until what you say falls in line with Scripture, you are deceived and what you say deceives those who believe you. If I am wrong, prove I am, with Scripture. Or keep on deceiving yourself and others. God puts that choice before you. But I grow tired of you pontificating without backing up what you say with Scripture.

how about this.. pontificate to someone who cares. Your standard response is now old and trite. You do more damage to your position than anyone who actually tries.

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Darksiege
Traveller, Calé, Whisperer
Lead me not into temptation; for I know a shortcut

And I grow tired of him doing so and you telling him he's wrong. Who died and made you the **** pope?

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

And I back up my arguments with Scripture. Which DE dismisses as out of context, etc, etc. I kid you not, you'd think he was taking his talking points straight out of the liberal atheists handbook, sometimes. There are virulent anti-Christians on this board who make the exact same arguments that he does, in some cases.

But no more of this. He is not going to come here and do this junk any longer with impunity. EVERY single time he comes here and tells me I am wrong on "this" or "that", he'd do well to have the Scriptural proof that I am wrong, because I am going to demand it.

Well, I'm not terribly sympathetic to what you're tired of since this is just another in a long line of posts wherein you simply proclaim what you think to be "Christian" and anything that disagrees with you to be "of the world" or something to that effect. I'm not going to waste my time trying to find quotes from Scripture that prove you wrong because in the past when I've explained what certain things mean you simply claim "No no that can't be because its... not what I think!" AS DFK! said, who died and made you Pope? Or maybe Chief Evangalist at the Believer's Spoken Word Baptist Living Waters Full Gospel Tabernacle?

This is just another post where you simply proclaim your standards and your understanding correct, and claim I'm wrong for not doing things your way. This is nothing but arrogance talking Bery. All you're doing is presuming to speak for God. You're simply a product of many years of error on the part of evangelicals where each church can simply invent its own doctrine, claim it's "backed up by Scripture" and then have another schism next time there's a dispute over the parking lot, with each new church being a "bible-believing church".

The world is God's creation Bery, and God gave us Scripture to be applied to it for our lives in it. What you call the "wisdom of the world" is simply understanding Scripture in its larger context. Until you get it out of your head that the Bible is not a magic book plopped down in our laps by God to be read slavishly with no thought or debate, you're a stumbling block.



No, you don't back up your arguments with Scripture at all. You back up your arguments with claims about it, and snippets pulled from it, and when some history about the time and place it was written, or some observation about what it doesn't say is introduced you just start hand-wringing.

You can demand whatever you want, but I don't have to play your game. You keep demanding - I'm going to keep ignoring your demands, and you're going to continue to show that you don't really understand Scripture at all - you only understand how to pull passages from it to support ideas that are purely the invention of man.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Wow, it sure takes a lot of words for you to admit you can't prove me wrong. You won't, because you can't.

I am disappointed that the hilarity that could have come from the title of this thread got sidetracked by bickering. You should all be ashamed for not providing me entertainment at work.

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Grenade 3 Sports Drink. It's fire in the hole.. Your hole!

Hey if you get to make demands about how you want others to post here is one of my own: stop posting biggoted bullshit then claiming to be the martyr when u get called on your crap. We get it; you are the only one who REALLY understands belief in Christ on this board, everyone else can only hope to aspire to spew crap in the same way you do.

You sound just as ridiculous as some of my family does.

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Darksiege
Traveller, Calé, Whisperer
Lead me not into temptation; for I know a shortcut

Not so. I care a great deal about truth and deception. God presented His truth to Adam and Eve, then along came the devil with his truth claims, and everything that has happened since hinges on the choice they made: Believe God, or believe Satan. There are many claims out there that are contrary to the nature of God, and we discover the nature of God through the Scriptures. General revelation points us toward God, but Scripture reveals His nature to us. Sin is anything that is contrary to the nature of God.

I am not the only one on this board who knows these things. Just the most vocal.

One who uses deception daily must care about truth and deception. Evil the devil can quote scripture when it suits his needs.

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"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

I'm guessing you meant "Even", not "Evil". So, what suits his needs? To deceive, so that people make the wrong choice, to choose his truth-claims over the truth-claims of God. Take the truth and add a little bit of error and what do you have? Error.

I tell you honestly, I would rather that God kill me immediately than that I deceive anyone in a way that causes them to miss the blessing of knowing God. Without that motivation all of this angst on this site totally ceases to be worth it, in any way, shape or form. If people reject God it is not going to be because I watered down the truth, or misrepresented it. Nor am I going to attempt to convince people that there is any other way to God than through Christ.

Nor am I going to dismiss part of Scripture because the truth presented is inconvenient, putting a chill on my own desires. Dismissing what is taught in the OT can be likened to building a house without a foundation. The NT builds on the foundation of the OT, they do not contradict one another.

Nor is it a contradiction to establish that salvation by grace through faith goes hand in hand with repentance of sin. After all, what examples of faith do we find in Scripture? "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness." How then can you say you have faith, if you don't believe God? Did Jesus say, "Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand" just to hear Himself talking? Or did He say it because God expects those who come to Him to come with a spirit of humility, acknowledging that we fail to live up to His standard and turning away from the sin that lies in the past? People want to come to God with a spirit of "Save me from the penalty of my sin, but I'm going to keep sinning anyway"? God is required to accept such a person? Does not Paul warn us?:



And also:



Those of you who believe in God and Christ His Son: Don't be cheated. Don't follow the deceits of the principles of the world. Stand on what Christ says, and believe Him. Don't take my word for this. Search the Scriptures for yourself. Don't be cheated. Don't be cheated.

That's enough.

Beryllin, you are the single most prideful "Christian" I have ever met. There is a line between evangelism and proselytizing that you've long since crossed. Every day you come to these forums and tell other people that they don't know how to believe in Christ; every day you come to these forums and attempt to incite fear based on an Old Testament God while ignoring the very reality of the New Covenant.

Or, since you think we're all heathens, apostates, and non-believers, let me put this in terms your religion-based Endorphin addled brain can parse:

Remove the plank from your own eye.

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You sure you have the right guy? I quoted one thing from the OT and several from the NT. Salvation by grace through faith is exclusive to neither the NT or the OT. God, who inspired the writing of the OT is the same God who inspired the writing of the NT.

That said, one should always be willing to examine himself. Thank you for the reminder.

*edit* For that matter, much of what I said was to people who already profess to follow Christ, in what way is that evangelising or proselytizing?

Wrong about what? You still haven't said what it is you think I should try to prove you wrong about.

In any case, when it does come to specific topics, you've failed to prove your points repeatedly. I don't bother to "back my points up with Scripture" because you don't back up your own with it. You quote snippets, and then promptly demonstrate you don't really understand them. I'm not going to provide my own snippets; you clearly wouldn't understand them either.

But that's why you want me to argue that way. You want it to be you, and only you, who gets to interpret Scripture. This crap about "don't use the wisdom of the world" is really just you saying "don't point out my ignorance about the Scripture I quote, just find some other piece and let me decide whether it proves me wrong or not."

Case in point: homosexuality. You have not shown any condemnation of homosexuality in the Bible. The OT only specifically addresses male homosexuality, and a literal reading appears only to address anal sex. Your only response to this is "well I don't care about what Scripture doesn't say" but without a condemnation of female homosexuality, you cannot call it a sin, and therefore you cannot call homosexuality in general a sin. If it were the mere fact of two people being of the same sex, the OT law would not limit the prohibition to males.

You have gone so far as to accuse God of being unjust if the purpose is simply to prevent rape, despite the fact that A) by that standard God is equally unjust if it is not to prevent rape because the law says the same thing and both partners would still be stoned B) the fact that you apparently have no problem of "just" or "not just" over the idea of stoning people to death for a consensual sex act in the first place and C) the fact that the verses imply voluntary action; a person being raped is not "laying down with another" they are being forced to do so. Therefore, a person who is a victim of rape is not culpable, but since the law prohibits any sex between men, rapists cannot use the defense of consensuality; all that might do is drag the victim down with them. It is therefore a strong deterrent to rape because there is no defense for the rapist.

Moving on to the NT, PAul makes unfavorable comments about homosexuality (depending on the translation) at some points, but he cannot be condemning homosexuality in general as some major sin without contradicting himself and Christ:

Matthew 15:11

[url]http://www.biblestudytools.com/1-corinthians/10-23-compare.html]1 Cor 10:23[/url]

All tihngs are lawful but not all things are profitable - something being unprofitable does not make it a sin.

Finally, the dispute at Antioch was specifically over the need to observe Jewish law. Specifically it was over dietary law, but the remainder of the Jewish law is no different - only the Ten Commandments enjoy any special status and they do not address the issue of homosexuality.



Even if we take the Jewish position that Paul still wanted Christians to observe the Seven Laws of Noah, that still only prohibits male homosexuality (Lesbianism is permitted under them) and the Seven Laws of Noah are not part of Christian tradition except insofar as they are reflected either in the Ten Commandments or int he remainder of OT law; they enjoy no status of their own.

This is not without good reason either; they were supposedly given to Adam in the Garden of Eden, but a prohibition on male homosexuality makes little sense for a man with a woman and a bunch of animals in a garden. Neither does the requirement for a just governing body or the prohibition against theft apply to Adam.

Even if we refer to the Apostolic Decree of Acs 15:20, that only refers to "Sexual immorality" or "fornication". One might argue that homosexual behavior is immoral, but that simply begs the question: In the absence of a clear prohibition on homosexuality in general (since there is none on that of females) there is no reason to think it is included. Even if we say that male homosexuality is immoral because it is prohibited by OT law that brings us back around to why? It was perfectly ok to excuse Gentiles from all sorts of other laws but not that one, and one that applied only to half the population? Especially when the reason for ahving it; preventing of male-male rape in the army of Israel had passed; Isreal no longer being an independant nation with its own army.

It is also problematic that although the Council of Jerusalem appears to prohibit eating food offered to idols, in 1 Corinthians Paul refuses to rebuke the Corinthian Christians from doing just that; he does not mention the council's decree.

The bottom line here is that homosexuality cannot be condemned with a blanket label of "sinful". Had God wished it to be so, He could have made it far more clear in both Testaments; instead He allows it to fall into the same category as circumcision and dietary law. Yet it still is the recipient of special pleading from people who want some sort of "sinner" to set up as the boogeyman about to bring God's wrath down on everyone.

Of course, you've been equally unable to support your assertions that the U.S. is about to receive punishment from God. You rely totally on Israel in the OT, totally disregarding the fact that the entire purpose of Israel's experience in the OT was to lead up to Jesus and show the need for Him, a situation no modern nation shares. Your only argument is that "God doesn't change" which is irrelevant; obviously He doesn't. That does not prevent him from devising a devine plan in which He undertakes different courses of action at different times based on what part of the plan is being advanced. God is not a robot, mindlessly proceeding in one fashion all the time. Your argument would be like claiming that becuase a person quits skydiving, rock-climbing, and deep-sea diving because they have children and no longe want to take risks that they are somehow a different person.

You ahve also appealed to the Revelation discussion of the end of the nations at the Second Coming, but since that is both inevitable and applies to every nation, it is not relevant to showing that the U.S. is going to receive any special punishment. Your argument that the nation will be punished is, in any case, spurious since God always bases his decisions on individuals; the sin of a nation is the aggregate of that of individuals, and God does not punish the righteous along with them. Refer to the Five Righteous Men that could not be found.

I might also point out that there is no one righteous, not even one.

I'm sure that you'll once again claim this is just "the wisdom of the world." Apparently the "wisdom of the world" is "Understanding God's teaching in any way that Bery doesn't approve of, even when his way contradicts Scripture". Bery, all you're really asking for here is a debate where only you get to interpret anything.

But since you apparently wanted so badly to be shown wrong about something, there you go. I eagerly await the next round of you changing the subject, moving the goalposts, and dire warnings about how any ideas you don't like are an indication that the holder is going to see God's wrath. It's truely instructive to see what Pharisees must have actually been like.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Nothing to add at all to this topic, but that was a very interesting and well laid out post DE.

Thanks.