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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:48 pm 
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darksiege wrote:
Monte wrote:
If I am not mistaken, however, DOMA Leaves the questions up to the states anyway, so I'm not sure what connection you are drawing between DOMA and what happened with Prop 8.


DOMA, Section 3 defines a marriage as one man and one woman. And DOMA, Section 2 states that no state needs to recognize a marriage between a same sex union because some other state does.

DOMA was passed specifically to get around the Full Faith and Credit Clause of the Constitution.

This does not presume you are right or wrong about DOMA, just stating the facts about it.


I assume no one here thinks I am a DOMA supporter. I am somewhat confused as to why Raf thinks I ought to be, or that my lack of support for DOMA somehow constitutes an inconsistency in the subject we are talking about here.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:16 pm 
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Monte wrote:
Ahhh, DFK. Your interpersonal skills are still so very genteel.

Wiki wrote:
Dred Scott v. Sandford,[1] 60 U.S. (19 How.) 393 (1857), commonly referred to as The Dred Scott Decision, was a decision by the United States Supreme Court that ruled that people of African descent imported into the United States and held as slaves, or their descendants[2]—whether or not they were slaves—were not protected by the Constitution and could never be citizens of the United States.[3] It also held that the United States Congress had no authority to prohibit slavery in federal territories. The Court also ruled that because slaves were not citizens, they could not sue in court. Lastly, the Court ruled that slaves—as chattel or private property—could not be taken away from their owners without due process. The Supreme Court's decision was written by Chief Justice Roger B. Taney..


The 14th Amendment was a direct response to this act of the Supreme Court. It established, constitutionally, the equality of all people, and set into the constitution what was already the norm - that citizenship in the United States was conferred at birth. Not just for white people but for all people.

So, who is the dumbass here? Dred Scott, as mentioned by me, has nothing to do with states right. I mentioned as a side note regarding the 14th Amendment.


I'm not sure who the dumbass is, maybe whoever you're reading on DailyKOS. I know it isn't me that's the dumbass, because I've actually read a book.

See, instead of reading a summary on Wikipedia, you might decide to actually look at the decision, or read a book. Unfortunately, that would require literacy.

However, just in case anybody else in the world reads what you wrote and actually believes the states were the ones oppressing Scott, let's look at some of the majority opinion. All emphasis mine:

Chief Justice of the FEDERAL Supreme Court Taney wrote:
The declaration is in the form usually adopted in that State to try questions of this description, and contains the averment necessary to give the court jurisdiction; that he and the defendant are citizens of different States; that is, that he is a citizen of Missouri, and the defendant a citizen of New York. The defendant pleaded in abatement to the jurisdiction of the court, that the plaintiff was not a citizen of the State of Missouri, as alleged in his declaration, being a negro of African descent, whose ancestors were of pure African blood, and who were brought into this country and sold as slaves.


Chief Justice Taney wrote:
And, if the plea and demurrer, and judgment of the court below upon it, are before us upon this record, the question to be decided is, whether the facts stated in the plea are sufficient to show that the plaintiff is not entitled to sue as a citizen in a court of the United States

[...]

The question is simply this: Can a negro, whose ancestors were imported into this country, and sold as slaves, become a member of the political community formed and brought into existence by the Constitution of the United States, and as such become entitled to all the rights, and privileges, and immunities, guarantied by that instrument to the citizen? One of which rights is the privilege of suing in a court of the United States in the cases specified in the Constitution.


Chief Justice Taney wrote:
In discussing this question, we must not confound the rights of citizenship which a State may confer within its own limits, and the rights of citizenship as a member of the Union. It does not by any means follow, because he has all the rights and privileges of a citizen of a State, that he must be a citizen of the United States. He may have all of the rights and privileges of the citizen of a State, and yet not be entitled to the rights and privileges of a citizen in any other State. For, previous to the adoption of the Constitution of the United States, every State had the undoubted right to confer on whomsoever it pleased the character of citizen, and to endow him with all its rights. But this character of course was confined to the boundaries of the State, and gave him no rights or privileges in other States beyond those secured to him by the laws of nations and the comity of States. Nor have the several States surrendered the power of conferring these rights and privileges by adopting the Constitution of the United States. Each State may still confer them upon an alien, or any one it thinks proper, or upon any class or description of persons; yet he would not be a citizen in the sense in which that word is used in the Constitution of the United States, nor entitled to sue as such in one of its courts, nor to the privileges and immunities of a citizen in the other States. The rights which he would acquire would be restricted to the State which gave them. The Constitution has conferred on Congress the right to establish an uniform rule of naturalization, and this right is evidently exclusive, and has always been held by this court to be so. Consequently, no State, since the adoption of the Constitution, can by naturalizing an alien invest him with the rights and privileges secured to a citizen of a State under the Federal Government, although, so far as the State alone was concerned, he would undoubtedly be entitled to the rights of a citizen, and clothed with all the [60 U.S. 393, 406] rights and immunities which the Constitution and laws of the State attached to that character.



Or, in other words, for the literate: If, say, Illinois makes you free you still aren't free under the Constitution of the FEDERAL government.

Scott was trying to claim citizenship because he'd been given it by Missouri, which is a STATE. The defendant, his owner, was claiming he did not have standing in FEDERAL court because he didn't have FEDERAL rights.

The STATE of Missouri set Dred Scott free, and the UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT returned he and his family to servitude.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:21 pm 
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Facts to Monte are like a fine wine to a wood chipper.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:36 pm 
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DFK! wrote:
Or, in other words, for the literate: If, say, Illinois makes you free you still aren't free under the Constitution of the FEDERAL government.

Scott was trying to claim citizenship because he'd been given it by Missouri, which is a STATE. The defendant, his owner, was claiming he did not have standing in FEDERAL court because he didn't have FEDERAL rights.

The STATE of Missouri set Dred Scott free, and the UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT returned he and his family to servitude.


Not refuting any point made in this post.. but this sounds like a blatant violation of the Full Faith and Credit Clause which was already in effect (I believe).

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:52 pm 
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darksiege wrote:
DFK! wrote:
Or, in other words, for the literate: If, say, Illinois makes you free you still aren't free under the Constitution of the FEDERAL government.

Scott was trying to claim citizenship because he'd been given it by Missouri, which is a STATE. The defendant, his owner, was claiming he did not have standing in FEDERAL court because he didn't have FEDERAL rights.

The STATE of Missouri set Dred Scott free, and the UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT returned he and his family to servitude.


Not refuting any point made in this post.. but this sounds like a blatant violation of the Full Faith and Credit Clause which was already in effect (I believe).


The Full Faith and Credit clause only applies from one state to another, not against the Federal government itself.

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Section 1 - Each State to Honor all others

Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State. And the Congress may by general Laws prescribe the Manner in which such Acts, Records and Proceedings shall be proved, and the Effect thereof

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 11:04 pm 
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DE,

Then I stand corrected. Thank you.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 11:07 pm 
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Monte wrote:
Rafael wrote:
If you really believed what you are saying, you would recognize that DOMA has not been repealed (recently part of it was ruled as Unconstitutional by a District Federal Court judge) and therefore any overturn of Prop. 8 in California is not Unconstitutional (US Constitution). In fact, the implication would be Prop 8 is entirely unnecessary, because if what you are saying is true, the California State Constitution cannot have language which is directly contrary to Federal Law. Therefore, Prop. 8 is redundant because it prohibits something in California already prohibited by Federal Law.


You make the mistake of assuming that I think a law is good or correct because it is a federal law. Like state law, there are checks and balances to federal laws, as well. Federal courts can toss both state and federal laws if those laws are unconstitutional. DOMA is clearly unconstitutional for basically the same reason as Prop 8. I am confident that both laws will be thrown down and/or repealed.

However, DOMA is the law of the land until it's bounced or repealed, and it does trump state law. That doesn't make it *right*, or something I have to support. It just is what it is. In fact, I find the law odious enough to warrant civil disobedience in order to draw attention to it's injustice. If I am not mistaken, however, DOMA Leaves the questions up to the states anyway, so I'm not sure what connection you are drawing between DOMA and what happened with Prop 8.


Actually I didn't make that mistake at all. The implication is clear and easy to observe.

You are arguing that Federal Health Care legislation matters only because it's Federal Law. You stated so here:

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Which is entirely irrelevant, given that it's the law of the land no matter what they pass in a given state. Federal law trumps state law.


In regards to Federal Health Care bill. And then you imply any state legislation contrary to Federal Law is Unconstitutional by way of the Fourteenth Amendment.

If this is so, you must also agree that opposition to DOMA, since it is also Federal Law, is Unconstitutional. Therefore, Prop 8 which is not contrary to DOMA is not Unconstitutional.

Now, you might imply DOMA is Unconstitutional, but you are wrong. It is just as Constitutional as the Health Care Bill. The USSC has not struck either as Unconstitutional, though there are specific rulings at the Federal Court levels on interpretation of parcels of the different bills. Furthermore, even if DOMA didn't exist, there is nothing that makes Prop 8 Unconstitutional. That would require Federal Legislation to be passed which would make Prop 8 in part or whole, Unconstitutional. No such legislation exists.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 6:41 am 
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darksiege wrote:
DE,

Then I stand corrected. Thank you.


I would't have even known myself, except I was thinking "dang, he's right! How come no one ever noticed that before?" so I looked it up and when I read it I thought "oh, crap, that's why."

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 9:07 am 
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Rafael wrote:

You are arguing that Federal Health Care legislation matters only because it's Federal Law.


Then you misunderstand my arguement. Let me be more clear -

My argument is simply a statement of fact. The vote referred to in this thread is irrelevant given that federal law trumps local law. Weather or not health care reform is constitutional will be decided in the courts. Until it's decided, it is the law of the land, and nothing an individual state does about it can change that. States don't have the right to ignore federal law. There are people who believe that states can nullify, but they're are plainly wrong.

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Now, you might imply DOMA is Unconstitutional, but you are wrong. It is just as Constitutional as the Health Care Bill.


That remains to be seen. The health care bill will likely survive legal challenges (the commerce clause, etc), but I don't think DOMA will.

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The USSC has not struck either as Unconstitutional,


Yet.


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Furthermore, even if DOMA didn't exist, there is nothing that makes Prop 8 Unconstitutional. That would require Federal Legislation to be passed which would make Prop 8 in part or whole, Unconstitutional. No such legislation exists.


???

Something can be ruled by the courts to be unconstitutional. For example, in Lawrence Vs. Texas, anti-sodomy laws were ruled to be unconstitutional. Texas had no state interest in regulating sex acts between consenting adults.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:06 am 
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Monte wrote:
However, DOMA is the law of the land until it's bounced or repealed, and it does trump state law. That doesn't make it *right*

Is this a concession that, despite rights being (in your mind) created by law, rights can be "wrong"?

QED healthcare as a right.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 7:31 pm 
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Monte wrote:
Then you misunderstand my arguement. Let me be more clear -

My argument is simply a statement of fact. The vote referred to in this thread is irrelevant given that federal law trumps local law. Weather or not health care reform is constitutional will be decided in the courts. Until it's decided, it is the law of the land, and nothing an individual state does about it can change that. States don't have the right to ignore federal law. There are people who believe that states can nullify, but they're are plainly wrong.


Exactly. This is why your argument that Prop 8 is Unconstitutional is completely bunk. There is nothing about Prop 8 that is contrary to any Federal Law. Your proclamation that it is so is incorrect.

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Now, you might imply DOMA is Unconstitutional, but you are wrong. It is just as Constitutional as the Health Care Bill.


That remains to be seen. The health care bill will likely survive legal challenges (the commerce clause, etc), but I don't think DOMA will.

Quote:
The USSC has not struck either as Unconstitutional,


Yet.[/quote]

Your comments in this regard are completely irrelevant. What you think will happen matters exactly **** because the premise of what we are discussing is based on what is. You even stated this in your initial premise.

Furthermore, that you bring up what your prediction of what will happen in such a context is even more revealing. It indicates you are unable to let your personal agenda not go without mention, and that itself is indicative that you don't believe in Rule of Law, but rather Rule of Law "When it does what I want"(tm). Otherwise, there would be no reason to interject with this irrelevant red herring.


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Quote:
Furthermore, even if DOMA didn't exist, there is nothing that makes Prop 8 Unconstitutional. That would require Federal Legislation to be passed which would make Prop 8 in part or whole, Unconstitutional. No such legislation exists.


???

Something can be ruled by the courts to be unconstitutional. For example, in Lawrence Vs. Texas, anti-sodomy laws were ruled to be unconstitutional. Texas had no state interest in regulating sex acts between consenting adults.


What the **** are you even talking about? What do State interests have to do with anything?

And such a ruling is in and of itself Unconstitutional. The 10th Amendment does not give the Government's Judiciary purview to make such decisions. Those Rights belong to the State. There are no rights defined implicitly or explicitly in The Constitution by which the Federal Government may prescribe conditions under which consensual sexual acts are illegal or legal. That could only be done through ratifications of an amendment.

The Federal Government cannot make any such laws which might make acts of consensual sex legal, because that would no sense: such acts are already "legal". It is also insidious because the implication is that this "right" comes from the legislation. Since this is the case, a State making a law to the same effect would also make no sense, though the Constitutionality of it (big C) is not an issue. It depends on the way the State decides to write its own constitution. The States, however, can make a determination that such acts are illegal, as is their right by the Tenth Amendment. Any laws or rulings on the matter of Constitutionality to the contrary are themselves Unconstitutional without the Constitutional aforementioned ratification.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 7:58 pm 
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If the government taxed folks and provided health care, Monty and RD might have had a point.

As it is, requiring folks to purchase health insurance isn't a tax, it's simply a requirement and one unsupported by the arguments he makes. The government won't collect the money, its trying to insist folks purchase insurance from private insurers. The merits of the legislation aside, I'd think they'd be against it because it sets a precedent of government control...

oh, wait, I see what they did there!

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 8:48 pm 
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Taskiss wrote:
As it is, requiring folks to purchase health insurance isn't a tax, it's simply a requirement and one unsupported by the arguments he makes. The government won't collect the money, its trying to insist folks purchase insurance from private insurers. The merits of the legislation aside, I'd think they'd be against it because it sets a precedent of government control...


To avoid confusion on this, I actually do oppose the individual mandate, as I think it's beyond the Constitutional power of the Federal government. My comment about taxes was just a response to your post comparing theft of money by private individuals to redistribution of wealth by government.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 4:07 pm 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Monte wrote:
However, DOMA is the law of the land until it's bounced or repealed, and it does trump state law. That doesn't make it *right*

Is this a concession that, despite rights being (in your mind) created by law, rights can be "wrong"?

QED healthcare as a right.


In the case of the United States, our rights are set forth in the constitution, and interpreted by the Courts. Our understanding of Rights continues to evolve, even today. If rights were inherent qualities of being human, their definition would be static, and quantifiable. And yet, we continue to come to new understandings and evolve our creation over time. For example, our country now sees African Americans as full people. We now see Women as equals. We are fast on our way to seeing gay people as equals.

And yes, we are beginning to see health care as a fundamental right. Like education.

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I don't understand why you feel the need to use the term "African-American", as if to indicate that they are somehow different, or less than actual Americans.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 6:36 pm 
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Monte wrote:
Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Monte wrote:
However, DOMA is the law of the land until it's bounced or repealed, and it does trump state law. That doesn't make it *right*

Is this a concession that, despite rights being (in your mind) created by law, rights can be "wrong"?

QED healthcare as a right.


In the case of the United States, our rights are set forth in the constitution, and interpreted by the Courts. Our understanding of Rights continues to evolve, even today. If rights were inherent qualities of being human, their definition would be static, and quantifiable. And yet, we continue to come to new understandings and evolve our creation over time. For example, our country now sees African Americans as full people. We now see Women as equals. We are fast on our way to seeing gay people as equals.

And yes, we are beginning to see health care as a fundamental right. Like education.


Just asking, but how can anyone think of health care as a right? Suppose I am a doctor. Are you arguing that you have a right to my time and services? Please explain your thinking on this.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 7:12 pm 
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Farther wrote:
Just asking, but how can anyone think of health care as a right? Suppose I am a doctor. Are you arguing that you have a right to my time and services? Please explain your thinking on this.


Oh ****, you just tried to engage Monty in rational discourse.

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Awooooga Awooooga

Dive Dive!

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 7:20 pm 
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Farther wrote:
Just asking, but how can anyone think of health care as a right? Suppose I am a doctor. Are you arguing that you have a right to my time and services? Please explain your thinking on this.

Incoming faux-populist rhetoric from the democratic socialist...

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 7:21 pm 
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DFK! wrote:
Farther wrote:
Just asking, but how can anyone think of health care as a right? Suppose I am a doctor. Are you arguing that you have a right to my time and services? Please explain your thinking on this.


Oh ****, you just tried to engage Monty in rational discourse.


He's clearly new here.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 7:32 pm 
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DFK! wrote:
Farther wrote:
Just asking, but how can anyone think of health care as a right? Suppose I am a doctor. Are you arguing that you have a right to my time and services? Please explain your thinking on this.


Oh ****, you just tried to engage Monty in rational discourse.


From what I've read, this particular forum is devoted to argument, but that's not what I wish to do. I just want clarification of the thinking behind the statement. I would think Monte could give it.


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Farther wrote:
From what I've read, this particular forum is devoted to argument, but that's not what I wish to do. I just want clarification of the thinking behind the statement. I would think Monte could give it.
He will undoubtedly provide it...but you may not understand it due to logical disconnects, the "clarification of the thinking behind the statement" may not be comprehensible.

As long as you refrain from challenging his position, you should be just fine.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 7:56 pm 
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Monte wrote:
For example, our country now sees African Americans as full people. We now see Women as equals. We are fast on our way to seeing gay people as equals.

And yes, we are beginning to see health care as a fundamental right. Like education.


Are you suggesting that the rights of those groups come from a piece of paper?

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Farther:

He may clarify, but it won't be a response resembling any form of logic. Monte doesn't believe in the concept of inherent rights. Following form, he has created a totally inconsistent internal morality based solely on his "gut feelings" and projects it onto others as if he were some sort of sage. He doesn't believe in the right to hold property in absolute, including the fruits of ones own labor, and as such he has no use for traditional views separating and polarizing positive and negative rights.

To him, rights are a matter of political convenience, and as easy to bestow or revoke as simply changing the meaning of a word by fiat declaration. A privilege becomes a right, and slavery becomes freedom with the wave of a wand, or by Montish decree.

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Well, perhaps if exhisting gov regualtions and laws hadn't already **** up the health care market, it wouldn't be so damn drastic.

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