The Glade 4.0 :: View topic - Computer fraud is worse than rape

Hacker Who Exposed Steubenville Rapes May Face More Prison Time Than Rapists He Exposed
Zach Weissmueller|Jun. 7, 2013 6:00 pm

An online activist who was instrumental in pushing the Steubenville rape story into the national spotlight has shed his anonymity and granted an interview to Mother Jones. As previously reported at Reason 24/7, Deric Lostutter, who is affiliated with the group Anonymous, was raided by the FBI under suspicion of hacking into a Steubenville High School sports fan page.

Lostutter denies hacking into the site and writes on his blog that he has received a "Target Letter," meaning that the government is summoning a grand jury to build a federal case against him. The warrant references four separate federal charges, including "Computer Crime," meaning he could face up to ten years in federal prison for the hacking-related charges. Recall that before he committed suicide, online activist Aaron Swartz faced 35 years in prison for similarly murky "computer crimes." The actual Steubenville rapists received one-to-two year sentences.

Lostutter's description of the FBI raid on his house is a telling reminder that brute force is practically standard operating procedure for U.S. law enforcement. Via Mother Jones:

At first, [Lostutter] thought the FBI agent at the door was with FedEx. "As I open the door to greet the driver, approximately 12 FBI SWAT team agents jumped out of the truck, screaming for me to 'Get the **** down!' with M-16 assault rifles and full riot gear, armed, safety off, pointed directly at my head," Lostutter wrote today on his blog. "I was handcuffed and detained outside while they cleared my house."

This is not the first time that actors on the periphery of this case have faced legal trouble. Earlier this year, First Amendment attorney Marc Randazza spoke to Reason TV about a whistleblowing Ohio blogger whom he successfully helped defend against defamation charges she faced after publishing commentary, photos, and social network posts related to the case. Watch below.

Yeah, it's pretty bizarre. I remember reading a short essay by a former cracker who had gone to prison -- I wish I could remember who. His advice was, first of all, don't do it. But failing that, the worst thing you can be is a harmless cracker. Don't just break in and snoop around. Lacking a very specific, concrete basis for determining damages, the feds will go crazy and claim that any intrusion, no matter how trivial, created millions of dollars in damages. So you might as well break into their accounting system and cut yourself a check for $5000, because that will probably guarantee you a 6 months - 1 year sentence instead of 30 years for the otherwise exact same crime.

You're right DiamondEye. Everything the Feds are doing in this instance is wholly justifiable and in no way wrong.

Additionally, it is entirely appropriate this guy is facing 10 years while the rapists themselves are doing 1-2.

Don't buy into things just because they confirm what you already want to believe, especially when they come from shitsources like the Department of Immigration and Naturalization Services.

Diamondeye wrote:

Don't buy into things just because they confirm what you already want to believe, especially when they come from shitsources like the Department of Immigration and Naturalization Services.

Diamondeye:

Actually, I picked the defunct name for the same reason I picked the agency named: the INS was notorious for publishing bad data; in fact, that propensity to release bad data to the public contributed to the executive reorganization that took place under George W. Bush. 9-11 contributed in no small way either. Had I actually thought it about more than 5-10 seconds, I'd have remembered you work for ICE and picked the BLS instead.

It would be sad if he got more time then the rapists he exposed however that doesn't make him:

A. innocent
B. some kind of folk hero.

Rorinthas wrote:

It would be sad if he got more time then the rapists he exposed however that doesn't make him:

A. innocent
B. some kind of folk hero.

This is true, of course. But by the same token, not being innocent and not being a folk hero doesn't make injustice okay.

This type of thing isn't new. In many states possession of child pornography gets you far more jail time than actually raping a child. In Arizona, for example, there is a mandatory minimum sentence of one year per images, so child porn is a near-guaranteed life sentence.

Author:	DFK! [ Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:55 am ]
Post subject:	Computer fraud is worse than rape
At least, according to our criminal code. http://reason.com/blog/2013/06/07/hacke ... e-rapes-fa Quote: Hacker Who Exposed Steubenville Rapes May Face More Prison Time Than Rapists He Exposed Zach Weissmueller\|Jun. 7, 2013 6:00 pm An online activist who was instrumental in pushing the Steubenville rape story into the national spotlight has shed his anonymity and granted an interview to Mother Jones. As previously reported at Reason 24/7, Deric Lostutter, who is affiliated with the group Anonymous, was raided by the FBI under suspicion of hacking into a Steubenville High School sports fan page. Lostutter denies hacking into the site and writes on his blog that he has received a "Target Letter," meaning that the government is summoning a grand jury to build a federal case against him. The warrant references four separate federal charges, including "Computer Crime," meaning he could face up to ten years in federal prison for the hacking-related charges. Recall that before he committed suicide, online activist Aaron Swartz faced 35 years in prison for similarly murky "computer crimes." The actual Steubenville rapists received one-to-two year sentences. Lostutter's description of the FBI raid on his house is a telling reminder that brute force is practically standard operating procedure for U.S. law enforcement. Via Mother Jones: At first, [Lostutter] thought the FBI agent at the door was with FedEx. "As I open the door to greet the driver, approximately 12 FBI SWAT team agents jumped out of the truck, screaming for me to 'Get the **** down!' with M-16 assault rifles and full riot gear, armed, safety off, pointed directly at my head," Lostutter wrote today on his blog. "I was handcuffed and detained outside while they cleared my house." This is not the first time that actors on the periphery of this case have faced legal trouble. Earlier this year, First Amendment attorney Marc Randazza spoke to Reason TV about a whistleblowing Ohio blogger whom he successfully helped defend against defamation charges she faced after publishing commentary, photos, and social network posts related to the case. Watch below.

Author:	Stathol [ Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:20 am ]
Post subject:
Yeah, it's pretty bizarre. I remember reading a short essay by a former cracker who had gone to prison -- I wish I could remember who. His advice was, first of all, don't do it. But failing that, the worst thing you can be is a harmless cracker. Don't just break in and snoop around. Lacking a very specific, concrete basis for determining damages, the feds will go crazy and claim that any intrusion, no matter how trivial, created millions of dollars in damages. So you might as well break into their accounting system and cut yourself a check for $5000, because that will probably guarantee you a 6 months - 1 year sentence instead of 30 years for the otherwise exact same crime.

Author:	Diamondeye [ Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:38 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Computer fraud is worse than rape
Computer crime is not worse than rape: Aggravated Sexual Abuse The Federal statute doesn't actually call the crime "rape", but the elements of the offense are the same, using force, threat, rendering someone unconscious, or drugging them. The sentence in either case can go up to life in prison, substantially longer than the 10 years this guy is facing. Under Ohio law, unauthorized use of a computer system (which includes hacking into it) is anywhere from a misdemeanor of the fourth degree to a felony of the second degree, depending on the circumstances and the degree of loss caused to the victim. Rape is a felony of the first degree. As for "Computer Crimes", there are around 40 different Federal statutes that reference computer crimes, but none of them are just called "computer crime". Any "murkiness" is introduced by Mother Jones, in purposefully referencing "4 separate Federal charges" that it somehow knows exist, but can't actually specify what they are. When it comes to the search, his description is hilarious - no one would conduct a warrant service that way; trying to get 12 guys out of a delivery truck with rifles after he opens the door in the way they're describing would be a recipe for disaster, and would totally defeat the purpose of having 12 people there in the first place. Can anyone guess why? But he's from Anonymous, and Mother Jones is publishing the story, and you can't be one of the cool kids if you get arrested without it involving profanity and (on the face of it) over the top law enforcement tactics - even if those don't make any sense. Never mind that, though. There's another clue that he's lying about the behavior of law enforcement during the search. Can anyone spot it?

Author:	DFK! [ Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:43 am ]
Post subject:
You're right DiamondEye. Everything the Feds are doing in this instance is wholly justifiable and in no way wrong. Additionally, it is entirely appropriate this guy is facing 10 years while the rapists themselves are doing 1-2.

Author:	Diamondeye [ Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:44 am ]
Post subject:	Re:
Stathol wrote: Yeah, it's pretty bizarre. I remember reading a short essay by a former cracker who had gone to prison -- I wish I could remember who. His advice was, first of all, don't do it. But failing that, the worst thing you can be is a harmless cracker. Don't just break in and snoop around. Lacking a very specific, concrete basis for determining damages, the feds will go crazy and claim that any intrusion, no matter how trivial, created millions of dollars in damages. So you might as well break into their accounting system and cut yourself a check for $5000, because that will probably guarantee you a 6 months - 1 year sentence instead of 30 years for the otherwise exact same crime. Is cracker like a new term for hacker or something? Part of the reason for the above is that the statute determines damage only in terms of dollar amounts. However, if you, say, hacked a system and got ahold of software code for an SM-3 and sold it to China, the damage would be far worse than the amount you got from China, or the costs incurred by the manufacturer. Unfortunately, there's no other really good way to quantify harm beyond dollars cost, except maybe people dead, and that's not usually applicable in hacking cases. Another good example is if you got access to something where personal information is contained, especially Social Security Numbers. The SSN in itself isn't worth any money, but the potential damage is enormous from identity theft.

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Author:	Diamondeye [ Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:54 am ]
Post subject:	Re:
DFK! wrote: You're right DiamondEye. Everything the Feds are doing in this instance is wholly justifiable and in no way wrong. Since the only "evidence" of wrongdoing is a blog post by a member of Anonymous and a publication by Mother Jones, both sources that are utterly untrustworthy then no, the Feds have done nothing wrong at this point. Your source is on par with Monty citing the SPLC's quantification of "hate groups". Quote: Additionally, it is entirely appropriate this guy is facing 10 years while the rapists themselves are doing 1-2. You're not comparing apples to apples. You made the statement that Computer Crime is worse than Rape. I demonstrated that this is false. Comparing the maximum penalty in one case to the sentence received in another demonstrates only that maximum penalties and actual sentences are two totally different things. The rapists were facing life. They got 1-2 years. This guy is facing 10 years. Why do you think he will get more than the rapists? For the vast majority of crimes, the maximum penalty is not what ends up being imposed. Furthermore, this guy has allegedly 4 charges against him, so if he's facing 10 years, that's an average maximum of 2.5 years per charge. There's also the fact that this guy is part of Anonymous. Nowhere does it say that all 4 charges relate to exposing the rapists. He quite likely was discovered to be involved in other crimes as well. Don't buy into things just because they confirm what you already want to believe, especially when they come from shitsources like Mother Jones.

Author:	Khross [ Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:56 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Computer fraud is worse than rape
"Hacker" and "cracker" have always had different and separate definitions; the software development crowd has attempted to reinforce the divide over the last several years, primarily because of individuals like you, law enforcement agencies, and the media using the two terms interchangeably. Software companies employ "hackers" -- those are the guys who figure out how to make things work when all normal modes of problem solving have failed. They "hack" in fixes; the work is called a "hack" because it's typically not clean, not transparent, and not exactly supported by "good theory." "Crackers" make a habit of "cracking" security, code, encryption, etc.

Author:	Khross [ Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:58 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Re:
Diamondeye wrote: Don't buy into things just because they confirm what you already want to believe, especially when they come from shitsources like the Department of Immigration and Naturalization Services.

Author:	Diamondeye [ Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:25 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Re:
Khross wrote: Diamondeye wrote: Don't buy into things just because they confirm what you already want to believe, especially when they come from shitsources like the Department of Immigration and Naturalization Services. Because when you can't address the issue at hand, make the issue into your own view of another through your own lenses. I'm sure it's in the Arguing on the Internet manual somewhere. Add some irrelevant bullshit on the end too. The real irony here is that you're actually correct, or at least you would be if there were an agency called Department of Immigration and Naturalization Services. There hasn't been for 10 years now. There's Customs and Border Protection, under which are Immigration and Customs Enforcement and Border Patrol, and a few others. If you want to troll, at least try not to use an agency that's been gone for 10 years as the target. But you absolutely should not believe anything that comes from DHS or CBP regarding total illegal entries, percentage of apprehensions, or anything like that. Their numbers are total crap, and the agencies entirely oriented around what the numbers look like in Washington, and how to get them down, not how the numbers are actually generated by guys tromping through the underbrush. It's amazing how you can get numbers down when you pull people off the line - either to do "administrative" duties like processing or rolling fingerprints, or just by tying them to static positions with various excuses. People that can't move around in the field not only find it hard to catch aliens, they also find it hard to find the footprints and other sign that aliens leave behind that would tell us how many got past us.... So no, you absolutely should not believe CBP when it comes to illegal immigration statistics. Even if they are reporting the numbers they have, and not doctoring them, they wouldn't need to actually doctor them. It's incredibly easy to make excuses to take people off the line so they can't catch anyone and can't document what wasn't caught if the numbers are getting too high. No doctoring needed. All that's needed is incompetence, and CBP has that in spades, and politically motivated tactical decisions can pretend to be simple incompetence, or passed off on the Congress as a budget issue. Yes, CBP (not INS) is a total shitsource. You're quite right. Oh wait. That has nothing to do with the topic. It's a total distraction. Imagine that.

Author:	Khross [ Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Computer fraud is worse than rape
Diamondeye: Actually, I picked the defunct name for the same reason I picked the agency named: the INS was notorious for publishing bad data; in fact, that propensity to release bad data to the public contributed to the executive reorganization that took place under George W. Bush. 9-11 contributed in no small way either. Had I actually thought it about more than 5-10 seconds, I'd have remembered you work for ICE and picked the BLS instead.

Author:	Diamondeye [ Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:44 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Computer fraud is worse than rape
Khross wrote: Diamondeye: Actually, I picked the defunct name for the same reason I picked the agency named: the INS was notorious for publishing bad data; in fact, that propensity to release bad data to the public contributed to the executive reorganization that took place under George W. Bush. 9-11 contributed in no small way either. Had I actually thought it about more than 5-10 seconds, I'd have remembered you work for ICE and picked the BLS instead. Fair enough.. except that I don't work for ICE, I work for a different sub-component of CBP. ICE has its own problems, but they all aggregate at the top, and they all have the same fundamental problem - they all pertain to enforcing laws against people who are a potential constituency for a major party, and a certain portion of the political spectrum. Either way, the new agencies are just as bad as INS ever was, and probably worse, and the BLS is no different. In fact, it's probably not coincidence that they're related since illegal immigration affects the availability of jobs, and if the labor statistics were accurate, that would be an indicator of how innaccurate the immigration numbers are, and just how negligent the agencies in charge have been.

Author:	Khross [ Mon Jun 10, 2013 1:05 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Computer fraud is worse than rape
The larger point was that Mother Jones is no less reliable than any other source of data; just arguably more biased than some. And that is in no way an endorsement of Mother Jones.

Author:	Diamondeye [ Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Computer fraud is worse than rape
"Any other sort of data" doesn't mean anything, because not all sources of data are equally reliable to begin with. Mother Jones is obviously fabricating data right in front of us with the claim of a charge of "computer crimes" when no such charge exists, then claiming its "murky" when the murk results from their own failure to specify what charge they refer to. On top of that, they post a blog from the arestee as if it were reliable, despite the fact that his version of events makes no sense and contains at least one obvious lie.

Author:	Rorinthas [ Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:36 pm ]
Post subject:
It would be sad if he got more time then the rapists he exposed however that doesn't make him: A. innocent B. some kind of folk hero.

Author:	Kaffis Mark V [ Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:01 pm ]
Post subject:
Also, I'm just ** sick of Anonymous claiming to be righteous freedom fighters. Nobody sympathizes with rapists, I don't feel that's a fight I need to weigh in on. Anonymous, though, has, in the name of "fighting the man" and "pointing out flaws in corporate security," exposed hundreds of thousands of private, innocent users' account information to the public. ** that noise.

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Author:	Micheal [ Mon Jun 10, 2013 6:05 pm ]
Post subject:	Re:
Rorinthas wrote: It would be sad if he got more time then the rapists he exposed however that doesn't make him: A. innocent B. some kind of folk hero. +1

Author:	Xequecal [ Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:55 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Computer fraud is worse than rape
This type of thing isn't new. In many states possession of child pornography gets you far more jail time than actually raping a child. In Arizona, for example, there is a mandatory minimum sentence of one year per images, so child porn is a near-guaranteed life sentence.

Author:	Stathol [ Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re:
Rorinthas wrote: It would be sad if he got more time then the rapists he exposed however that doesn't make him: A. innocent B. some kind of folk hero. This is true, of course. But by the same token, not being innocent and not being a folk hero doesn't make injustice okay.

Author:	Rorinthas [ Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:36 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Computer fraud is worse than rape
Well no but I got the vibe from the article that we are supposed to think he's some kind of freedom fighter who didn't do anything wrong. If his sentence is unjust in and of itself he should appeal it. It's easy to look at two entirely different cases see that it appears unequal, but its hard to dig into the merits of each case and see what logic is behind the sentences. I haven't admittedly done the leg work on this.

Author:	Diamondeye [ Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:46 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Re:
Stathol wrote: Rorinthas wrote: It would be sad if he got more time then the rapists he exposed however that doesn't make him: A. innocent B. some kind of folk hero. This is true, of course. But by the same token, not being innocent and not being a folk hero doesn't make injustice okay. Even assuming there's an injustice that occurs, it hasn't happened yet. It is not automatically unjust for particular computer crimes to be more serious than rape. Most computer crimes are probably less serious than rape, but some may be more so. We do not know if the computer crimes he is charged with are connected to the rapes at all. They may be from other incidents that are in no way connected to the rapes, and may have caused serious harm to certain people.

Author:	Diamondeye [ Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:48 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Computer fraud is worse than rape
Xequecal wrote: This type of thing isn't new. In many states possession of child pornography gets you far more jail time than actually raping a child. In Arizona, for example, there is a mandatory minimum sentence of one year per images, so child porn is a near-guaranteed life sentence. And what is the mandatory minimum for raping a child in Arizona? While you are correct that child pornography charges may be over the top in some instances, rape in most places carries a possible life sentence even if the victim is an adult. How the potential sentence for raping a child is less, I would very much like to know. I suspect you're talking about consensual statutory rape where the victim is a "child" only in the sense of being technically below the age of consent, and the perpetrator above. Either that or you just heard this somewhere and haven't verified it.