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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:28 pm 
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http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/1 ... ap-prices/

Yahoo, Verizon: Our Spy Capabilities Would ‘Shock’, ‘Confuse’ Consumers

* By Kim Zetter Email Author
* December 1, 2009 |
* 3:30 pm |
* Categories: Cover-Ups, Surveillance, privacy
*

spying0709073Want to know how much phone companies and internet service providers charge to funnel your private communications or records to U.S. law enforcement and spy agencies?

That’s the question muckraker and Indiana University graduate student Christopher Soghoian asked all agencies within the Department of Justice, under a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request filed a few months ago. But before the agencies could provide the data, Verizon and Yahoo intervened and filed an objection on grounds that, among other things, they would be ridiculed and publicly shamed were their surveillance price sheets made public.

Yahoo writes in its 12-page objection letter (.pdf), that if its pricing information were disclosed to Soghoian, he would use it “to ’shame’ Yahoo! and other companies — and to ’shock’ their customers.”

“Therefore, release of Yahoo!’s information is reasonably likely to lead to impairment of its reputation for protection of user privacy and security, which is a competitive disadvantage for technology companies,” the company writes.

Verizon took a different stance. It objected to the release (.pdf) of its Law Enforcement Legal Compliance Guide because it might “confuse” customers and lead them to think that records and surveillance capabilities available only to law enforcement would be available to them as well — resulting in a flood of customer calls to the company asking for trap and trace orders.

“Customers may see a listing of records, information or assistance that is available only to law enforcement,” Verizon writes in its letter, “but call in to Verizon and seek those same services. Such calls would stretch limited resources, especially those that are reserved only for law enforcement emergencies.”

Other customers, upon seeing the types of surveillance law enforcement can do, might “become unnecessarily afraid that their lines have been tapped or call Verizon to ask if their lines are tapped (a question we cannot answer).”

Verizon does disclose a little tidbit in its letter, saying that the company receives “tens of thousands” of requests annually for customer records and information from law enforcement agencies.

Soghoian filed his records request to discover how much law enforcement agencies — and thus U.S. taxpayers — are paying for spy documents and surveillance services with the aim of trying to deduce from this how often such requests are being made. Soghoian explained his theory on his blog, Slight Paranoia:

In the summer of 2009, I decided to try and follow the money trail in order to determine how often Internet firms were disclosing their customers’ private information to the government. I theorized that if I could obtain the price lists of each ISP, detailing the price for each kind of service, and invoices paid by the various parts of the Federal government, then I might be able to reverse engineer some approximate statistics. In order to obtain these documents, I filed Freedom of Information Act requests with every part of the Department of Justice that I could think of.

The first DoJ agency to respond to his request was the U.S. Marshals Service (USMS), which indicated that it had price lists available for Cox Communications, Comcast, Yahoo and Verizon. But because the companies voluntarily provided the price lists to the government, the FOIA allows the companies an opportunity to object to the disclosure of their data under various exemptions. Comcast and Cox were fine with the disclosure, Soghoian reported.

He found that Cox Communications charges $2,500 to fulfill a pen register/trap-and-trace order for 60 days, and $2,000 for each additional 60-day-interval. It charges $3,500 for the first 30 days of a wiretap, and $2,500 for each additional 30 days. Thirty days worth of a customer’s call detail records costs $40.

Comcast’s pricing list, which was already leaked to the internet in 2007, indicated that it charges at least $1,000 for the first month of a wiretap, and $750 per month thereafter.

But Verizon and Yahoo took offense at the request.

Yahoo objected on grounds that its pricing constituted “confidential commercial information” and cited Exemption 4 of the Freedom of Information Act and the Trade Secrets Act.

Exemption 4 of the FOIA refers to the disclosure of commercial or financial information that could result in a competitive disadvantage to the company if it were publicly disclosed. The company claims its pricing is derived from labor rates for employees and overhead and, therefore, disclosing the information would provide clues to its operating costs — regardless of whether these same clues are already available in public records, such as those the company files with the Securities and Exchange Commission. The company also claims that since Soghoian is trying to determine the actual amounts the Marshals Service paid Yahoo for responding to requests, the price lists are irrelevant, since “there are no standard prices for these transactions.”

But equally important to Yahoo’s objections was the potential for “criticism” and ridicule. Yahoo quoted Soghoian on his blog writing that his aim was to “use this blog to shame the corporations that continue to do harm to user online privacy.”

Yahoo also objected to the disclosure of its letter objecting to the disclosure of pricing information saying that “release of this letter would likely cause substantial competitive harm” to the company. The company added, in a veiled threat, that if the Marshals Service were to show anyone its letter objecting to the disclosure of pricing information, it could “impair the government’s ability to obtain information necessary for making appropriate decisions with regard to future FOIA requests.”

If anyone out there has a copy of Verizon or Yahoo’s law enforcement pricing list and wants to share it, feel free to use our anonymous tip address.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:02 pm 
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Verizon does disclose a little tidbit in its letter, saying that the company receives “tens of thousands” of requests annually for customer records and information from law enforcement agencies.


Bedore anyone goes nuts over this, telephone harassment is a common crime. A lot of these requests are becasue of everyday assholes calling people they don't like and bothering or threatening them; teenagers especially.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:43 pm 
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Goes nuts? Over 10's of 1000's? Out of 300 million? Verizon's, what, maybe a fifth of the market, to be conservative?

Heck, the murder rate nationally was 16k last year. So if requesting a record of calls made/received is a standard part of such an investigation, there's at least 16k requests out of the 5 sets of 10k-99k (tens of thousands) requests annually. Consider that murder investigations are hardly the only type of crime where such simple records requests are made and justified, and the number doesn't faze me at all.

Hell, even if it was 1 person being bugged in 6k (50k out of 300m), that's almost acceptable.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:49 pm 
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Diamondeye is correct. I work with these law enforcement agencies on almost a daily basis, responding to warrants for information.

In every case I have been involved with it was a legitimate law enforcement request that had been vetted by the company Law Enforcement Relations group and the company's legal council. In every single case I've been involved in, it was in response to serious criminal investigations. Think kidnappings, murders, armed robberies... stuff like that.

If you have some evidence that access to this kind of information is being abused, I'd like to see it.

Edit:
The article makes it sound as though this information/access is somehow for sale. For my part,I can assure you that if there is any money exchanging hands, it's only in cases where losses or expenses are being recouped. Companies may define costs for certain types of investigative activities, but I've never seen/heard about such a thing (not part of my job really). The idea that information is 'for sale' is ludicrous. The legal hoops that have to be processed for access to this information are significant.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:58 pm 
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I don't care if its being abused or not, taxpayer payment information should be publicly available.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 5:13 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
I don't care if its being abused or not, taxpayer payment information should be publicly available.


Just to be clear, you feel that any information obtained at the expense of the taxpayers be "publicly" available? Or just the fact that information was paid for?

All information? Or just the that information deemed useful to the investigation and recorded as evidence?


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 5:16 pm 
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Midgen wrote:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
I don't care if its being abused or not, taxpayer payment information should be publicly available.


Just to be clear, you feel that any information obtained at the expense of the taxpayers be "publicly" available? Or just the fact that information was paid for?

All information? Or just the that information deemed useful to the investigation and recorded as evidence?


Information pertinent to the investigation should not be made public (transcripts of phone calls). However, public expenditures of any type should be available to those footing the bill.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 5:45 pm 
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Regardless of national security interests? For example, should the CIA have to post it's payments to it's deep cover field agents?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:04 pm 
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No money shall be drawn from the treasury, but in consequence of appropriations made by law; and a regular statement and account of receipts and expenditures of all public money shall be published from time to time.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:12 pm 
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Oh snap.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:08 pm 
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I have no problem with accounting for the money. In fact it's obviously very important.

I think disclosing the actual data to the public, with no considerations for privacy or security, is problematic.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:09 pm 
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This is another one of those things where you have to make allowances for times changing. Standing armies weren't required in 1776, they sure as hell are now. Anything you tell the public about, you also tell your enemies about, and in a lot of necessary areas that totally defeats the purpose.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:46 pm 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Goes nuts? Over 10's of 1000's? Out of 300 million? Verizon's, what, maybe a fifth of the market, to be conservative?

Heck, the murder rate nationally was 16k last year. So if requesting a record of calls made/received is a standard part of such an investigation, there's at least 16k requests out of the 5 sets of 10k-99k (tens of thousands) requests annually. Consider that murder investigations are hardly the only type of crime where such simple records requests are made and justified, and the number doesn't faze me at all.

Hell, even if it was 1 person being bugged in 6k (50k out of 300m), that's almost acceptable.


They're not talking about people being bugged there, they're talking about people's call records being turned over to law enforcement, things like what number called what number at what time.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:51 pm 
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Xequecal wrote:
This is another one of those things where you have to make allowances for times changing. Standing armies weren't required in 1776, they sure as hell are now. Anything you tell the public about, you also tell your enemies about, and in a lot of necessary areas that totally defeats the purpose.


Standing armies were definitely required in 1776. The founders realized this, thats why they didn't prohibit them, they just made it more inconvenient to finance them so that they didn't just exist as a matter of course, but Congress was forced to look at funding every 2 years.

Notice the Navy has no such restrictions although in practice its easier to do everything the same way.

Some of the founders may have been opposed to standing armies but as a group "wary" might be appropriate. Prohibiting standing armies except in time of war wasn't going to happen; it takes time to train soldiers even back in that era. Militias didn't fare well against regulars either. The idea of not having a standing army was a non-starter.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:59 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Hell, even if it was 1 person being bugged in 6k (50k out of 300m), that's almost acceptable.


They're not talking about people being bugged there, they're talking about people's call records being turned over to law enforcement, things like what number called what number at what time.

I'm aware. Hence the phrasing "Hell, even if...".

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:06 pm 
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Monte wrote:
Regardless of national security interests? For example, should the CIA have to post it's payments to it's deep cover field agents?


Yes. Why would that be a problem? You don't need to show cancelled checks.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:37 am 
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The fact that you need to show where public funds are being spent doesn't mean you need to go into any certain specific level of detail.

For example, just list "CIA field operations: $300 million" (or whatever). Some of that is deep cover, some of it is other types. As long as the amount is true, the public doen't need to know that Asad got $350,000 and Ivan got $500,000 and Cheng got $450,000.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:38 am 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Hell, even if it was 1 person being bugged in 6k (50k out of 300m), that's almost acceptable.


They're not talking about people being bugged there, they're talking about people's call records being turned over to law enforcement, things like what number called what number at what time.

I'm aware. Hence the phrasing "Hell, even if...".


I thought the "hell even if" referred to the number, not the fact that they were being bugged.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:47 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
The fact that you need to show where public funds are being spent doesn't mean you need to go into any certain specific level of detail.

For example, just list "CIA field operations: $300 million" (or whatever). Some of that is deep cover, some of it is other types. As long as the amount is true, the public doen't need to know that Asad got $350,000 and Ivan got $500,000 and Cheng got $450,000.


Don't we already do that in the budget for the CIA?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 8:05 am 
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Well, we don't exactly know, Montegue. It seems that Captain Transparency is well on his way to invoking State Secrets and National Security in court more often than his Cowboy Predecessor.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 8:06 am 
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Monte wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
The fact that you need to show where public funds are being spent doesn't mean you need to go into any certain specific level of detail.

For example, just list "CIA field operations: $300 million" (or whatever). Some of that is deep cover, some of it is other types. As long as the amount is true, the public doen't need to know that Asad got $350,000 and Ivan got $500,000 and Cheng got $450,000.


Don't we already do that in the budget for the CIA?


I don't know. I'm not that familiar with budgeting practices. You hear talk about "black money" in books and films, but that's Hollywood. In theory, one might not want to disclose certain budgetary item sizes because the size of the budget could allow someone to extrapolate how big a field effort you have and based on other information possibly "make" an agent or at least figure out roughly how many they have in their country, but that's in theory. The actual difficulty of that is based completely on the actual circumstances, and would invariably involve guess work. Taken to an illogical extreme it could be argued that releasing the size of the public budget at all creates such a vulenrability because they can subtract the amount you spend on everything else to get the amount spent on <insert item you're trying to protect here> but I don't think anyone would advocate concealing the entire public budget for that reason.

An inherent contradiction in any sort of intelligence work is that collecting and acting on intelligence can (depending on circumstances and practices) clue the enemy in to what intel you have and/or how you got it. Whether that matters or not again, depends on the circumstances, but it is something you want to minimize as much as possible. If you're not careful, you can render your intelligence worse than useless as the enemy learns you know it and changes, thus making it part of his deception plan. (I use the term enemy extremely broadly here)

On the other hand, you can also double-think yourself into never acting on any of it by being to cautious. Perverse, isn't it?

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