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America's Problem? We're morons. https://gladerebooted.net/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=10488 |
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Author: | Müs [ Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:02 pm ] |
Post subject: | America's Problem? We're morons. |
http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/14/opinion/g ... r_facebook Quote: - I'm a sucker for all of those man-on-the-street interviews that late-night shows do to reveal just how dumb Americans are. It's fun to laugh at the people who struggle with simple math problems or are unable to find any country we're at war with on a map. More than a few even get tripped up trying to name the branches of government. It's all fun and games until you remember that elections have consequences, and that many of those people who said they could name the president -- but not the commander in chief -- will soon be standing in a voting booth, armed with a ballot. If you think government dysfunction is the country's No. 1 problem -- and according to a recent Gallup poll, a third of the nation does -- then maybe we should take those hilarious late-night interviews a little more seriously. You see, while we were busy waving our angry finger at Washington, the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) released its findings from the Survey of Adult Skills. The group's research measured the literacy, math and computer skills of 5,000 adults from 16 to 65 and compared those numbers with that of 21 other countries. The good news is that we didn't finish last in anything. The bad news is that we're in pretty sad shape when not finishing last is the good news. Trailing every country in the survey except Italy and Spain in math is rough. But how the OECD's findings may play a role in elections and the economy is disturbing. According to the report, "individuals who score at lower levels of proficiency in literacy are more likely than those with higher proficiency to ... believe that they have little impact on the political process." Also "in most countries, individuals with lower proficiency are also more likely to have lower levels of trust in others." U.S. adults ranked 16th in literacy proficiency. The OECD findings seem to be consistent with that of the U.S. Department of Education, which estimated back in 2009 that some 32 million adults lacked the proficiency to read a newspaper. This was captured by a witty USA Today headline about the findings: "Literacy study: 1 in 7 U.S. are unable to read this story." That was kinder than the New York Post headline after the new OECD report: "U.S. adults are dumber than the average human." An uneducated workforce is a hindrance to us all and an uninformed electorate is the thorn in democracy's side, taunting us with the words of Joseph de Maistre: "Every country has the government it deserves." While it seems there's a chance we could be headed toward an agreement that will put an end to the partial government shutdown, we must not overlook the fact that the man most credited/blamed for the disruption was on the Senate floor quoting "Green Eggs and Ham" during his filibuster. But this is not just a Republican problem. I can't help but notice the correlation between a more partisan nation and a more dumb-ass nation -- regardless of party. Remember Ted Cruz is not the first politician to drag Dr. Seuss into the mess that is Washington. In 2007, during the immigration debate, Sen. Harry Reid read a piece from the New York Times that contained quotes from "The Cat in the Hat." "And this mess is so big. And this mess is so deep and so tall, we can not pick it up. There is no way at all!" Reid then went on to say: "Mr. President, some would say that is what we have in the Senate today -- a big mess. But if you go back and read Dr. Seuss, the cat manages to clean up the mess." I used to think politicians such as Cruz and Reid quoted from children's books as a way to insult the intelligence of their political foes. Now I'm wondering if it's because they're afraid using big words would lose the rest of us. When Gallup asked Americans what was the country's top problem, after dysfunctional government, the top-listed items were the economy (19%), unemployment (12%), the deficit (12%) and health care (12%) . Sadly education didn't crack the top five, despite being the one area that really links them all. "Proficiency in literacy, numeracy and problem solving in technology rich environments is positively and independently associated with the probability of participating in the labour market and being employed, and with higher wages," the new OECD report stated. Educators will tell you the best catalyst for prolonged academic success is early childhood education. Among the 38 OECD and G20 countries that participated in a report released last year, we were 28th in the percentage of 4-year-olds who are receiving early childhood education. Hmmm, those late-night interviews aren't so funny anymore. 100% agreed. The culture of ignorance in this country is a shame. |
Author: | Corolinth [ Tue Oct 15, 2013 4:34 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: America's Problem? We're morons. |
A bigger part of the problem that often goes overlooked is that the United States is not a labor driven economy, and has not been for decades. Ours is a technology driven economy. Our labor is increasingly performed by machines. There simply is not enough labor in the United States for everyone to have a job. People need to be able to maintain and upgrade technology. A side effect is that our economy requires fewer people to operate. We have a lot of dead weight among our citizenry, who exist purely because our social security pyramid scheme requires an increasing population to support. Except that now we're passing the threshhold beyond which an increasing population base does not increase GDP. We are filling the country up with people who simply do not have marketable skills. Those people could perhaps become useful, but it first requires that we accept that this is not an agrarian, labor driven economy. Farmers don't grow our food with hoes and pitchforks. They use tractors and genetic engineering. |
Author: | Diamondeye [ Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:57 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: America's Problem? We're morons. |
That's mostly true, although there's a significant demand for unskilled manual labor to do agricultural work. Unfortunately, that labor market is entirely dominated by the ever-increasing number of illegal aliens who are totally unprepared for the technology-centric jobs you describe. The real danger of illegal immigration isn't in the presence of the illegals in and of itself, but that they represent an ever-increasing number of people with the lowest potential to do the sophisticated jobs of a technology-centric economy. They also represent a pool of potential voters to one political block. |
Author: | Arathain Kelvar [ Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:41 am ] |
Post subject: | |
My 5-yo can read the newspaper. ****, we're screwed. |
Author: | Taskiss [ Wed Oct 16, 2013 10:35 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: America's Problem? We're morons. |
Corolinth wrote: A bigger part of the problem that often goes overlooked is that the United States is not a labor driven economy, and has not been for decades. Ours is a technology driven economy. Our labor is increasingly performed by machines. There simply is not enough labor in the United States for everyone to have a job. People need to be able to maintain and upgrade technology. I disagree. Quote: US Imports $2.299 trillion (2012)
Import goods Consumer goods (except automotive), 22.7%; capital goods (except computing), 18.7%; industrial supplies (except crude oil), 18.4%; crude oil, 13.7%; automotive vehicles and components, 13.1%; computers and accessories, 5.4%; food, feed, and beverages, 4.8%; other, 3.1%. |
Author: | Talya [ Wed Oct 16, 2013 1:53 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: America's Problem? We're morons. |
Taskiss wrote: Corolinth wrote: A bigger part of the problem that often goes overlooked is that the United States is not a labor driven economy, and has not been for decades. Ours is a technology driven economy. Our labor is increasingly performed by machines. There simply is not enough labor in the United States for everyone to have a job. People need to be able to maintain and upgrade technology. I disagree. Quote: US Imports $2.299 trillion (2012) Import goods Consumer goods (except automotive), 22.7%; capital goods (except computing), 18.7%; industrial supplies (except crude oil), 18.4%; crude oil, 13.7%; automotive vehicles and components, 13.1%; computers and accessories, 5.4%; food, feed, and beverages, 4.8%; other, 3.1%. I don't get it. You're saying that Americans need to start taking jobs related to importing foreign goods? |
Author: | Taskiss [ Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:21 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: America's Problem? We're morons. |
I'm saying that there's opportunity for labor, since domestic production is not meeting demand. The "there's not enough labor for everyone to have a job" theory suggests there's not enough demand to warrant production or that technology has reduced the amount of labor required to satisfy production demands. |
Author: | Talya [ Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:34 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: America's Problem? We're morons. |
Taskiss wrote: I'm saying that there's opportunity for labor, since domestic production is not meeting demand. Domestic production isn't meeting demand for several reasons, none of which you can do anything about: (1) You simply don't have the resources to supply that demand. Short of compressing your unskilled labor under thousands of pounds of pressure and heat, you can't turn your unskilled labor into something like crude oil. (2) You are able to meet demand, but people generally don't want the American products. You're not going to get more people to buy Chrysler or General Motors, because Mazda, Toyota, Honda, Subaru and Nissan are better. (Ford has been steadily improving for twenty years or so.) It's not a matter of not meeting demand, it's a matter of the demand being for the imports, not the domestics. (3) American companies produce their products elsewhere because american labor costs too much and has inferior productivity (blame unions if you want.) Your beloved Apple products aren't going to be made here in North America, because if they were, they'd suck, and your bloated $800 iphones would cost $1600. |
Author: | Taskiss [ Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:43 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
I was disagreeing with this assertion: Quote: There simply is not enough labor in the United States for everyone to have a job. The points you bring up don't support that assertion either, and in fact, I agree that there is merit in your arguments. |
Author: | Hopwin [ Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:48 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
Try this guy Taskiss: The labor supply in America does not cross the demand curve at the optimal price point. |
Author: | Jeryn [ Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:48 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: America's Problem? We're morons. |
Talya wrote: Short of compressing your unskilled labor under thousands of pounds of pressure and heat, you can't turn your unskilled labor into something like crude oil. Exxon premium is people!
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Author: | Taskiss [ Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:51 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: |
Hopwin wrote: Try this guy Taskiss: The labor supply in America does not cross the demand curve at the optimal price point. Exactly. Domestic production isn't competitive in spite of simpler logistics and generally lower transportation costs. |
Author: | Corolinth [ Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:56 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
So to try and refute my point, you guys start talking about demand for goods that are produced by machines. |
Author: | Talya [ Wed Oct 16, 2013 3:00 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: |
Corolinth wrote: So to try and refute my point, you guys start talking about demand for goods that are produced by machines. Just about everything, everywhere is produced by machines. There are still people involved in that process. Every station in an auto assembly line is manned. Hand-labor is basically reserved for arts and crafts at this point. |
Author: | Corolinth [ Wed Oct 16, 2013 3:12 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
And production that once required ten people now requires three. Supermarkets hire people to put away boxes of foodstuffs. Once upon a time, Anheuser Busch used to do the same to store cases of beer in their breweries. Now they use robots. If you think you can hire the same guys to program and maintain those robots that you had picking up and carrying boxes, I've got some land in Florida to sell you. We're getting rid of our labor jobs, because it's not worth paying a person to do it. People screw up too often and want too much money compared to the cost and reliability of a machine. |
Author: | Taskiss [ Wed Oct 16, 2013 3:16 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: |
Corolinth wrote: So to try and refute my point, you guys start talking about demand for goods that are produced by machines. The US (GDP ~ $15.6T) imports about $243B from China (GDP ~ $8.2T), when China has an overwhelmingly greater workforce (US - 155M, China - 937M) The "there's simply not enough labor to have a job" theory isn't supported by those numbers. As Taly suggests, it's not so simple as that. There's obviously plenty of demand for goods produced by labor, or we'd not be importing so much from China, since I don't see them as technologically "on par" with the US. Corolinth wrote: We're getting rid of our labor jobs, because it's not worth paying a person to do it. People screw up too often and want too much money compared to the cost and reliability of a machine. That is a totally different argument from your first assertion. I disagree with that too, though. Our demand that results in importing good from China, where tech takes a back seat to manual labor, suggests that it's worth paying someone to do it, it's just not worth as much as workers in the US would accept. |
Author: | Talya [ Wed Oct 16, 2013 4:30 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Re: |
Taskiss wrote: That is a totally different argument from your first assertion. I disagree with that too, though. Our demand that results in importing good from China, where tech takes a back seat to manual labor, suggests that it's worth paying someone to do it, it's just not worth as much as workers in the US would accept. Actually it's all automated in china, too. Coro is making some distinction between laborers who oversee and maintain the machines that do the construction, and those who actually produce goods with their hands. The latter doesn't really exist. Even textiles made in asian sweatshops are still made on machines. (Sewing machines were probably among the first automated labor machines.) |
Author: | Taskiss [ Wed Oct 16, 2013 4:54 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
2/3 of the entire worlds workforce is Chinese, where unemployment is 4.1% http://www.businessweek.com/articles/20 ... t-in-china The US is just doing it wrong. |
Author: | Xequecal [ Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:12 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: |
Taskiss wrote: 2/3 of the entire worlds workforce is Chinese, where unemployment is 4.1% http://www.businessweek.com/articles/20 ... t-in-china The US is just doing it wrong. The market value of most of those jobs does not pay a living wage here in the US. Hell, it barely pays a living wage over in China. To make that work over here, we'd have to repeal the laws about mandatory overtime pay and expect people to work 14-16 hour days just to feed and shelter themselves in basic conditions, repeal all welfare programs (or people would never actually do the work) as well as repeal all workplace safety laws. (they make the jobs too expensive to be competitive) |
Author: | Taskiss [ Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:29 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: America's Problem? We're morons. |
There's a couple of ways to sell something. You can be cheaper than the next guy, OR, you can provide a ridiculously superior product. Follow the cheap rabbit down the hole and you'll just wind up in a hole. The second option is the way to go, in my opinion. Thing is, the US doesn't have the guts to do what it takes to be the best anymore. I wish it did. |
Author: | Xequecal [ Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:35 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: America's Problem? We're morons. |
Taskiss wrote: There's a couple of ways to sell something. You can be cheaper than the next guy, OR, you can provide a ridiculously superior product. Follow the cheap rabbit down the hole and you'll just wind up in a hole. The second option is the way to go, in my opinion. Thing is, the US doesn't have the guts to do what it takes to be the best anymore. I wish it did. This doesn't make a whole lot of sense. The people who would design the "ridiculously superior product" are not the same people that would manufacture it. If manufacturing said product requires skilled labor, that can be done here, but it doesn't fix the problems outlined in this thread. It manufacturing the product requires unskilled labor, it will still be outsourced to China unless we do all the things I just said. |
Author: | Müs [ Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:37 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
It doesn't matter anyway. This isn't about manufacturing... its about ignorance. America celebrates it. |
Author: | Xequecal [ Wed Oct 16, 2013 8:27 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: America's Problem? We're morons. |
IMHO, the US doesn't have a productivity or a work ethic problem, it has a spending problem, and we have vast industries that exist to enable this. It's not that we don't work hard enough or don't produce enough, we just spend too much. It pervades into both government and the private sector. The US is currently spending more than every other country combined on its military and is now well on its way to spending more than every other country combined on its health care. In Europe, even though they pay half per-capita on health care that we do, their governments have realized they can't support both it and a military so they have slashed their militaries down to the bare bones. When I went mortgage shopping a couple of months ago, I was curious and asked the guy how much I could get. He said that with a mere 3.5% down, he could get me approved for a $350,000 mortgage, no questions asked. They ran a 5-minute credit check and that's all they needed to see. That's about six times my annual salary, and according to him a lot of people go for such loans. This is despite it supposedly being in an environment where the "banks aren't lending" and "it's really hard to get a mortgage." In Germany they start asking tough questions and want months of employment and spending history if you want a 20,000 Euro car loan. "Why do you need a loan for a car? Why can't you just save money and buy the car?" A mortgage? Forget it, the process is so draconian and invasive that only a small minority of Germans actually acquire property in that manner. In Germany, buying the land with cash and then having you and your family build the house yourselves is more common than buying existing property via a mortgage. Here, I hear ads on the radio advertising "If you bring home $400 a week, we can get you approved for a $15,000 car!" After you factor in the interest, that means people are ponying up over 100% of their post-tax annual salary for a car, and the environment allows this. Not doing enough work is not a problem here, no matter how much people like to complain about it. My dad runs the US operations of a German manufacturing company, so he has experience in managing people both here and there, and he constantly marvels to me at how much Americans let themselves get "exploited." "Last month we had a machine break down. That means it takes longer to make parts to fill an order. What do we do in the states? We just tell two of our salaried guys that they have to stay two or three hours longer every day and get it done. I don't have to pay them more for this. Americans accept working more for free. If I did this over in Germany, they'd **** laugh at me. I might end up in the local paper being called a slaver." |
Author: | Diamondeye [ Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:24 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
Those European countries have been able to get away with slashing their militaries largely because that of the US is so large. In any case, the US military budget is deceptive because other countries with large militaries tend to pay their troops **** and have inferior equipment, while those countries that pay well and have good equipment are smaller countries. The U.S. is unique in both being a large country AND not having cheap gear and cheap troops. The European countries are rapidly running out of military to cut, and frankly, we are too. Our military spending could be vastly more efficient, but becuase of fixed costs, small cuts to the military budget mean large cuts in capability. Slashing the budget by 50% like some people talk about would cripple us completely. We would be able to conduct nuclear deterrence and not a hell of a lot else. |
Author: | Khross [ Thu Oct 17, 2013 7:11 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: America's Problem? We're morons. |
There is not enough demand for labor in the United States to support the economic situation you guys want, Taskiss. Also, any comparison to China's workforce and labor economy is ludicrous at the absolute best, the vast majority of Chinese are actually slaves with a ridiculous high suicide rate that live in prison like dorms. Before there can be any meaningful comparison of the American workforce and the Chinese workforce, you have to discuss the human rights conditions behind them. Our human rights cost money. That said, the vast majority of Americans are an inferior product themselves. In some respects, our government is to blame, but mostly it's your generation, Taskiss. The Baby Boomers rode the coattails of their parents; they passed along a progressive American Dream that included every increasing accumulation of wealth, status, and economic stability to their children. Except, the Baby Boomers by and large told their children they were entitled to the greener grass on the other side of the fence. They left out an important lesson while teaching their children to be special little snowflakes who are all awesome and unique ... If you want that greener grass, you better bust *** and work for it, because the only way to get the greener grass is to earn it yourself. As to one other point, General Motors and Chrysler Group are considered the two world car manufacturers in the world according to Consumer's Digest's 2013 Automotive Buyer's Guide. Neither manufactures a single recommendable vehicle for sale in the developed world. Ford, on the other hand, has a Eurospec Fusion that made it onto the recommended mid-size list. And the F-Series pickups are still the best selling vehicles on the planet, without question. Ford didn't take Obama's money. |
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