The Glade 4.0

I'm in the heart of this, given my ambitions, and my location. I want to hear from the rest of you, then I'll weigh in, if you'll indulge me.

Go!

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 

Not familiar with the case. Or is this an election race?

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"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

Bishop Tobin, of the Providence, RI. diocese, has been very outspoken recently, instructing people through an argument with Rep. Patrick Kennedy that the Catholic Church cannot, and will not support public funded abortions; and thusly, an otherwise extra-ordinarily "social justice" leaning church institution jumped ship on national health care.

Kennedy engaged Tobin very publicly, instructing a teacher of the Church, that he is no less Catholic, nor any of his constituents less Catholic, because they reject Church teachings in favor of something the Church abhors.

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 

Good for them. Unfortunatly I fear that such opposition to the bill would vanish if abortion funding was somehow (perhaps even temporarily) removed from the senate bill. However I personally have more fault with it than just that issue.

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I prefer to think of them as "Fighting evil in another dimension"

hehe.. fine be no less catholic.. and when yer *** gets excommunicated... you WILL be less catholic.

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Darksiege
Traveller, Calé, Whisperer
Lead me not into temptation; for I know a shortcut

1) I agree with the bishop (not about the abortion thing, I could give two shits about that damn red herring, but about the whole "if you don't follow what Catholicism dictates you're less 'Catholic'")
2) He's risking his tax-exempt status.

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

The Church has been playing fast and loose with their tax exempt status for a while. They largely funded the anti-gay marriage effort in California for example, and this last effort combined with their charity blackmail in DC is just more reason to yank their tax exempt status.

I'm sure someone will yell at me for being anti religion now, but frankly, church needs to keep it's nose out of politics.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

As soon as the church is granted exempt status from all laws, regulations, taxation, etc, etc, passed by political bodies, I'll agree with you wholeheartedly. Ever hear of "taxation without representation"?

So long as the church is subject to the laws passed, they have a legitimate voice in the process.

The Church didn't fund anything in California; neither, for that matter, did the church. Christians may have funded something, but they are not synonymous with The Church or the church.

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Claiming the church needs to keep its nose out of politics or get its tax exempt status revoked is simply saying "we're going to tax people for their beliefs.. unless they're atheists since they don't have 'churches'"

All social, economic, foriegn, etc. issues are politics. Any time a person comments on a social issue they are commenting on politics. Because every religion has views on social matters, it is practically impossible to teach or practice a religion without "sticking your nose into politics".

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

DE - Churches are non profit entities in the US and are required by law to keep their nose out of politics.

Khross - you are simply, and totally wrong. Catholic organizations linked directly to the Church were instrumental in opposition. The mormon church was not only involved in extolling it's members to donate and oppose the effort, but also in direct efforts against marriage equality. Focus on the Family, as well, had it's hands in the pie. Direct advocacy is illegal, and (if we actually bothered to enforce the law) would cost those churches their exempt status.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

So you agree with the same rules you think churches should abide apply to ACORN?

ACORN isn't a church, Ladas.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

No, they aren't. They're required not to endorse candidates. They may not be required to "keep their noses out of politics." That is a violation of both the Free Exercise clause and Freedom of Speech.



None of that is illegal, nor do "organizations directly linked" count. If it isn't the actual church itself, it doesn't count.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Is ACORN a non-profit entity?

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

I don't know about him, but IMHO absolutely. ACORN should have lost its tax-exempt status long ago.

Rynar, it seems to me that Tobin was spot-on in his statements, while Kennedy, much like Pelosi, is dead wrong. Belonging to The Church is a voluntary thing, and there are certain rules to abide by. These pols can repeat falsehoods and inaccuracies all they like, it won't change reality.





Khross is absolutely correct.



That is neither what you originally stated, nor is it factual.



In the context of this thread, that is absolutely incorrect.

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"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

So out of all the tax exempt organizations recognized by US law, only churches must relinquish the ability to advocate political positions? I'd love to hear the logic behind that one, though there clearly is none.... because well...


Focus on the Family isn't a church either, yet you are calling their activity illegal. If their activity is illegal, so is ACORN's (ignoring the truely illegal activity of ACORN).

...Because well... it's false.

501c3's, the federal code that indicates tax-exempt status, precludes direct political advocacy. That's why PAC's exist.

ACORN, if it's a 501c3, most certainly is in violation. If it's filed under some other area of the code (which is possible), it may not be.

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

501c4 can lobby but cannot directly contribute, support, or oppose.

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"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

I request that this thread be monitored to exclude "Would Be Should Be" surrounding ACORN, should the thread devolve into that. This thread is not about ACORN, or contrast compare with ACORN. This thread isn't about that. This thread is about Tobin V. Kennedy. Can we keep it there, please?

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 

I would like to agree with this very much. Belonging to a church is not mandatory. And plain and simple, if you belong to any organization and cannot abide by the rules of that organization; you should be kicked out of it.

If a man from the KKK takes a black wife... he should be asked to leave.

If a member of the any church blantantly and obviously differs with the rules of his church, he should be asked to leave.

If a person decides to start wantonly and blatantly ignoring the rules his employer sets in the employee handbook; he should be asked to leave.

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Darksiege
Traveller, Calé, Whisperer
Lead me not into temptation; for I know a shortcut

Yes, but it is also not a church. There is no constitutionally mandated and supreme court supported separation of ACORN and state.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

You have an exceptionally poor understanding of what separation of church and state means.

Holy crap, Monty, you need to read it again. Here, I've quoted it for you:



Please point to the language that requires that Churches not be able to endorse candidates, or where it says anything at all about taxes.

"Make no law" does not introduce requirements on anyone but Congress, dude. The tax exempt status you are referring to does not come from the Constitution. It comes from tax law.