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Here we go again (Net Neutrality)
https://gladerebooted.net/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=10707
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Author:  Midgen [ Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Here we go again (Net Neutrality)

Appeals Court Strikes Down Net Neutrality

Subheader wrote:
Broadband providers aren't "common carriers," court says, and that makes all the difference in a decision certain to shake up the fixed broadband and wireless industries.="


First few paragragphs wrote:
A federal appeals court in Washington on Tuesday struck down the Federal Communications Commission's rules for Net neutrality.

The 2-1 ruling upheld the FCC's right to regulate broadband access, but the court called into question the FCC's authority to impose rules that dictate how broadband providers manage traffic on their networks.

In its decision, the court ruled that, "even though the commission has general authority to regulate in this arena, it may not impose requirements that contravene express statutory mandates. Given that the commission has chosen to classify broadband providers in a manner that exempts them from treatment as common carriers, the Communications Act expressly prohibits the commission from nonetheless regulating them as such. Because the commission has failed to establish that the anti-discrimination and anti-blocking rules do not impose per se common carrier obligations, we vacate those portions of the Open Internet Order."

The case, which Verizon filed against the FCC after it imposed these Open Internet rules in 2011, puts to rest, for at least the time being, a very controversial topic that has been debated in Washington, D.C., for nearly a decade. In plain English, the court rejected Verizon's argument that the FCC had overstepped its authority to regulate broadband access, instead acknowledging that the FCC has general authority to impose regulations on broadband and wireless service providers. But because the services these providers offer are classified differently from traditional telecommunication services, the justices reasoned in their decision that they are not subject to the same statutes, which guide the agency in forming its regulatory policies.


ready for some tiered service access to your favorite content?

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Author:  Müs [ Wed Jan 15, 2014 4:03 pm ]
Post subject: 

That's depressing.

Author:  Khross [ Wed Jan 15, 2014 4:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Here we go again (Net Neutrality)

Liberal judges decided some internets were more equal than others.

Author:  Lenas [ Wed Jan 15, 2014 4:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Here we go again (Net Neutrality)

Sigh.

Author:  Khross [ Wed Jan 15, 2014 4:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Here we go again (Net Neutrality)

Almost as bad as the Yelp decision, yesterday.

Author:  Müs [ Wed Jan 15, 2014 4:32 pm ]
Post subject: 

Yelp decision?
http://www.sfgate.com/business/article/ ... 132790.php

Ahh.

No, the net neutrality is much, MUCH worse.

Author:  Khross [ Wed Jan 15, 2014 4:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Here we go again (Net Neutrality)

http://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2014/01 ... urt-rules/

Courtesy of Kaffislacker ...

Quote:
A US court in the state of Virginia ruled on 7 January that anonymous users aren't covered by First Amendment protection of free speech if a review "is based on a false statement".

Joe Hadeed, the owner of Hadeed Carpet Cleaning, which is based in Virginia, told the court that seven Yelp users had left anonymous, negative feedback about his business on the review service.

His lawyers filed against Yelp, demanding that it reveal the names of the posters.

The court agreed and ordered Yelp to comply, deeming that Hadeed had provided enough for it to conclude that the Yelp users might not actually have been customers of his business.

Hadeed had told the court that the bad reviews hadn't matched up with actual customers in his database.

Therein lies the "false statement" logic.

Author:  Midgen [ Wed Jan 15, 2014 4:42 pm ]
Post subject: 

Which means if you leave a negative review on Yelp, and the business owner claims it's false, Yelp has to reveal your identity, opening you up to a lawsuit (that you probably can't afford to defend)...

Author:  Müs [ Wed Jan 15, 2014 4:43 pm ]
Post subject: 

Yeah, I don't have a problem with that ruling. You want to leave feedback? Man up and post your name.

Author:  Müs [ Wed Jan 15, 2014 4:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:

Midgen wrote:
Which means if you leave a negative review on Yelp, and the business owner claims it's false, Yelp has to reveal your identity, opening you up to a lawsuit (that you probably can't afford to defend)...


Don't leave a BS negative review then. Easy Peasy.

Author:  Elmarnieh [ Wed Jan 15, 2014 4:52 pm ]
Post subject: 

So you don't have a 4th amendment right to lie?

Author:  Elmarnieh [ Wed Jan 15, 2014 4:53 pm ]
Post subject: 

Which does mean the Yelp ruling is FAR WORSE than the net neutrality one.

Author:  Corolinth [ Wed Jan 15, 2014 4:58 pm ]
Post subject: 

Don't want your car searched by the cops? Don't be a pot smoker. You have nothing to fear if you did nothing wrong.

Author:  Müs [ Wed Jan 15, 2014 4:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:

Elmarnieh wrote:
So you don't have a 4th amendment right to lie?


Libel is illegal already. That's what it is. A published lie that affects a reputation.

You can say whatever you want, just be aware that some speech has consequences.

The loss of Net Neutrality is FAR worse than making people responsible for their statements.

Author:  Khross [ Wed Jan 15, 2014 5:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Re:

Müs wrote:
Elmarnieh wrote:
So you don't have a 4th amendment right to lie?


Libel is illegal already. That's what it is. A published lie that affects a reputation.

You can say whatever you want, just be aware that some speech has consequences.

The loss of Net Neutrality is FAR worse than making people responsible for their statements.
Not so much. Yelp should alter the services it offers and changes it terms of operations. More to the point, the precedent sets an inordinately low bar for repealing Net Anonymity. It's not the government's place to correct this situation. Yelp needs to prevent both positive and negative astroturfing or risk becoming an invalid and discredited sources. It's profit model and continued business operations rely on its reliability and accuracy as a service. If it allows anonymous posters to continually sandbag businesses, then it will lose business and cease to exist.

The plaintiff didn't actually prove that the negative reviews came from non-customers; he couldn't definitively substantiate the claims of competitor sandbagging.

Author:  Micheal [ Wed Jan 15, 2014 5:39 pm ]
Post subject: 

The cost of Internet service is about to go up and the sites accessible is about to go way down.

Author:  RangerDave [ Wed Jan 15, 2014 5:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Re:

Müs wrote:
Libel is illegal already. That's what it is. A published lie that affects a reputation. You can say whatever you want, just be aware that some speech has consequences.

Well, the USSC has ruled in the past that the right to free speech includes the right to engage in anonymous speech precisely because requiring people to speak only on the record could, would and has in the past involved the risk of consequences that result in a "chilling effect" on speech. For instance, back in the days of Jim Crow, publishing a pro-Civil Rights pamphlet in the South could get you killed, so if segregationist states and towns wanted to prevent people from speaking out in favor of Civil Rights without doing so explicitly, they could just prohibit anonymous pamphleteering and let people's justified fear of reprisals take care of the rest. Luckily, courts have said nope to that kind of thing.

When it comes to defamation, though, courts have typically tried to strike a balance by requiring that the plaintiff seeking to pierce anonymity show that it has a reasonable belief, after due inquiry, that the allegedly defamatory statements actually are false and that harm has resulted. I haven't read the details of the Yelp case, but from what I've seen in the coverage, it appears that this court either didn't require that of this plaintiff or set an unusually low bar for him to clear.

Author:  Müs [ Wed Jan 15, 2014 5:49 pm ]
Post subject: 

Anonymous speech is one thing. Anonymous libel is another.

OK: (Anonymous Hannity Guest:)I believe that gay marriage is a right!

Not OK: (Anonymous Yelper:) Bob's dry cleaning is a ripoff! They totally ruined my best Brooks Brothers suit! It cost me over a thousand dollars to have it replaced! (When said yelper did not have a BB suit nor did they actually patronize Bob's)

Author:  Lenas [ Wed Jan 15, 2014 6:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Here we go again (Net Neutrality)

What if I go to a restaurant and have the worst steak in my life, and say so in my review? It's honest, by definition not libel. The owner however can SAY it's a lie, and all of a sudden has the ability to pursue me? Get the **** outta here.

Author:  RangerDave [ Wed Jan 15, 2014 6:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:

Müs wrote:
Anonymous speech is one thing. Anonymous libel is another.

OK: (Anonymous Hannity Guest:)I believe that gay marriage is a right!

Not OK: (Anonymous Yelper:) Bob's dry cleaning is a ripoff! They totally ruined my best Brooks Brothers suit! It cost me over a thousand dollars to have it replaced! (When said yelper did not have a BB suit nor did they actually patronize Bob's)

Sure, but what if the Yelper really was a customer of Bob's and really did have his suit ruined? Should his anonymity be protected? If so, how do you balance that with Bob's right to protect his reputation against anonymous defamation? What if, instead of ***** about a suit, the Yelper had instead claimed to have seen some things that made him suspect Bob's Dry Cleaning was mobbed up? What if he was an employee posting under a pseudonym to blow the whistle on some kind of illegal or unethical practice? Should we protect anonymity in those cases? If so, what's the principle for differentiating between cases where we want to protect anonymity and cases when we don't?

Author:  Corolinth [ Wed Jan 15, 2014 6:25 pm ]
Post subject: 

Bingo. That's the part Mus isn't getting.

This is a huge problem across the internet. I don't have to prove you've done anything wrong. All I have to do is file a DMCA complaint about you. Now you have to prove you haven't done anything wrong.

So now we're going to apply the same mentality to bad reviews about a business. The problem is getting worse, not better.

Author:  Müs [ Wed Jan 15, 2014 6:44 pm ]
Post subject: 

If its truthful, then it isn't libel. /shrug.

Bob's can lie and say they didn't destroy a suit, the customer can show the suit, and the receipt from Bob's.

If you feel strongly enough to leave a negative review about a shitty steak, then you should feel ok with posting your name. If the steaks really are shitty, the owners won't have the time or money to file suit against everyone that leaves a shitty review. And leaving a libelous review will have its own consequences if a suit is pursued.

Action --> Consequence.

Author:  Müs [ Wed Jan 15, 2014 6:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Re:

RangerDave wrote:
Müs wrote:
Anonymous speech is one thing. Anonymous libel is another.

OK: (Anonymous Hannity Guest:)I believe that gay marriage is a right!

Not OK: (Anonymous Yelper:) Bob's dry cleaning is a ripoff! They totally ruined my best Brooks Brothers suit! It cost me over a thousand dollars to have it replaced! (When said yelper did not have a BB suit nor did they actually patronize Bob's)

Sure, but what if the Yelper really was a customer of Bob's and really did have his suit ruined? Should his anonymity be protected? If so, how do you balance that with Bob's right to protect his reputation against anonymous defamation? What if, instead of ***** about a suit, the Yelper had instead claimed to have seen some things that made him suspect Bob's Dry Cleaning was mobbed up? What if he was an employee posting under a pseudonym to blow the whistle on some kind of illegal or unethical practice? Should we protect anonymity in those cases? If so, what's the principle for differentiating between cases where we want to protect anonymity and cases when we don't?


Speaking to the bolded point:
Bob's ruined the suit. They know they did. They had the suit in their possession, and performed the ruination on it. They will likely be able to trace that suit to a certain customer and that customer will not be anonymous anyway.

Author:  Midgen [ Wed Jan 15, 2014 9:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:

Müs wrote:
If you feel strongly enough to leave a negative review about a shitty steak.


Sorry Arafys, but I'm not going to expose private/personal information (even just my real name) to people on a review site. I wouldn't even register for such a place.

Author:  Müs [ Wed Jan 15, 2014 10:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Re:

Midgen wrote:
Müs wrote:
If you feel strongly enough to leave a negative review about a shitty steak.


Sorry Arafys, but I'm not going to expose private/personal information (even just my real name) to people on a review site. I wouldn't even register for such a place.


Then you don't feel strongly enough to leave a negative review about a shitty steak ;)

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