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Foamy
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:46 pm 
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Article spoilered for longness

STORY HIGHLIGHTS

* Brooklyn, New York, woman tried to cause rival to miscarry, prosecutors say
* Woman allegedly forged prescription for labor-inducing drug
* Victim of ruse gave birth to boy, who survived
* Someone later tried to poison baby's milk in hospital, prosecutors say

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New York (CNN) -- Prosecutors in Brooklyn have charged a 38-year-old woman with tricking a pregnant woman into taking an abortion-inducing drug because the suspect thought her husband had fathered the child with the other woman.

And after the baby was born two months premature, but survived, someone tried unsuccessfully to slip a toxic substance through hospital security to the infant in the guise of milk for the baby, according to prosecutors.

The suspect, Kisha Jones, allegedly went to great lengths to end the pregnancy of 25-year-old Monique Hunter, according to a complaint filed by the Brooklyn district attorney's office in an ongoing investigation that began over a month ago.

Jones is in jail facing multiple charges, including attempted abortion and assault, according to authorities.

The baby is in a hospital's intensive care unit, according to the criminal complaint. The complaint did not elaborate on Hunter's condition but described her as providing information to investigators.

The complaint alleges that Jones in October used a doctor's prescription pad to forge a prescription for Hunter for a drug that can induce labor, telling the pharmacist that the drug was needed for a "procedure."

The complaint said it is not clear how Jones got a prescription notepad from a licensed doctor, but the doctor was not treating Hunter and said the prescription was not written by anyone in his office.

Authorities said that, after obtaining the drug, Jones called Hunter numerous times claiming to be the pregnant woman's doctor's office and telling Hunter that her doctor had sent a prescription for her to pick up and take immediately.

Hunter immediately took the drug after receiving the phone calls, thinking it was a legitimate prescription from her doctor, authorities said.

Soon after, she was rushed to a hospital with severe abdominal pain, and gave birth to a boy.

A source at the Brooklyn district attorney's office confirmed to CNN that following the child's birth, an unidentified man went to the hospital with what he claimed was breast milk for Hunter's baby, but the liquid was later determined to be toxic. Hospital staffers alerted police.

New York police say they are still investigating that incident and looking for the man involved.

According to authorities, in addition to attempted abortion and assault, Jones has been charged with reckless endangerment, forgery of a medical prescription, possession of a forged instrument and criminal impersonation.

An unidentified male at the Hunter residence responded to a phone call from CNN by saying that "nobody has any remarks about that situation."

Jones was arraigned on Saturday and is being held without bail. She is expected to appear again at a court hearing on Wednesday.


This is horrible on so many levels, but what jumped out at me was the "attempted abortion". I am interested where this falls from a legal perspective. With the pro-choice side claiming that a developing fetus isn't a life, but rather a choice, what does "attempted abortion" equate to. Breaking and entering? Stealing?

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Elmarnieh
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:50 pm 
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Murder in most states.

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Micheal
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:51 pm 
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Attempted Murder

/shakes head sadly.

Sick woman. If said accusations are true she needs psychiatric help as much as being locked away for awhile.

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Foamy
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:54 pm 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
Murder in most states.


Interesting double standard. So "attempted abortion" or "abortion" is a crime when someone other than a doctor or a clinician does it without the mother's consent.

But when the mother wants to murder her own unborn child, it becomes a choice...

Got it.

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Müs
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:56 pm 
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It has to do with consent.

Also:
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And after the baby was born two months premature, but survived


They don't generally perform abortions in the third trimester anyway.

I'd call it attempted murder.

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Foamy
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:59 pm 
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I'd be interested to know if there have been any cases of someone trying to end a pregnancy earlier that the 3rd trimester in the same manner.

Say, a person kicks a 3-month pregnant mother-to-be causing her to miscarry...

Murder? Manslaughter? Fetusslaughter?

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Micheal
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That is a legal Gordian's knot. Yes, that junk has been done before, but I don't know if it has gone to court as far as the willful slaying of the unborn. Definitely assault and battery on the mother.

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Müs
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:10 pm 
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Foamy wrote:
I'd be interested to know if there have been any cases of someone trying to end a pregnancy earlier that the 3rd trimester in the same manner.

Say, a person kicks a 3-month pregnant mother-to-be causing her to miscarry...

Murder? Manslaughter? Fetusslaughter?


Assault and Battery at the least, Manslaughter at the worst. Unless its premeditated intent to cause a miscarriage, then I'd be ok with murder.

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TheRiov
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:17 pm 
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remember, the baby was only 2 months premature, third trimester abortions are generally only done in extreme cases (non-viable fetus, life of the mother, etc) and even those who are pro-choice usually dont advocate for them, as, by that point, usually the child can survive outside the womb with intensive medical care.
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Vindicarre
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:29 pm 
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Foamy wrote:
I'd be interested to know if there have been any cases of someone trying to end a pregnancy earlier that the 3rd trimester in the same manner.

Say, a person kicks a 3-month pregnant mother-to-be causing her to miscarry...

Murder? Manslaughter? Fetusslaughter?


Murder of an Unborn Child
Manslaughter
Fetal Homicide

It varies greatly from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.

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Dash
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:42 pm 
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Every now and then there is a legal tussle by pro life and pro choice factions on issues like this. When a pregnant woman is killed for instance the pro life side will push for a double homicide while the pro choice fights it because they believe it's going to be used to ban abortions.

I vaguely remember a scuffle during the Scott Peterson murders where a group wanted him charged with double homicide for his wife Laci and her unborn child.

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Corolinth
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:01 pm 
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Foamy wrote:
Interesting double standard. So "attempted abortion" or "abortion" is a crime when someone other than a doctor or a clinician does it without the mother's consent.

But when the mother wants to murder her own unborn child, it becomes a choice...

Got it.
I have bolded the parts that make it a crime. The consent qualifier is the big one, but attempting to abort another person's child is also practicing medicine without a license, which is illegal in its own right.

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Vindicarre
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:19 pm 
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Dash:

I remember that too (pro-choice people pushing for it not to be considered murder for the baby); Peterson was convicted of second degree murder for the baby.

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Stathol
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:32 pm 
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Corolinth wrote:
The consent qualifier is the big one, but attempting to abort another person's child is also practicing medicine without a license, which is illegal in its own right.

That part seems like a bit of a stretch to me. If I stab someone in the spleen, you don't call it an unlicensed splenotomy.

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Screeling
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:36 pm 
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Stathol wrote:
Corolinth wrote:
The consent qualifier is the big one, but attempting to abort another person's child is also practicing medicine without a license, which is illegal in its own right.

That part seems like a bit of a stretch to me. If I stab someone in the spleen, you don't call it an unlicensed splenotomy.

Maybe YOU don't...

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Vindicarre
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:38 pm 
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I call it an unlicensed splenectomy - and good fun for the kids!

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:39 pm 
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I would jump at the chance to call anything an "unlicensed splenotomy." Even things that have nothing to do with surgery, or spleens.
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Stathol
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Screeling
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Farskee, you get to play lead singer.

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Corolinth
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Stabbing me in the spleen would be assault. Possibly with a deadly weapon.

Consequently, an attempted abortion could be ruled as assault, or even attempted murder considering that said abortion attempt could very likely involve forcing (or tricking) the mother to ingest a toxic chemical.

Anyhow, the point is there's plenty of good reasons why it's illegal without even beginning to consider the fetus.

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DFK!
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:29 pm 
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Corolinth wrote:
Consequently, an attempted abortion could be ruled as assault...


Any medical procedure conducted without the consent of the patient that isn't an emergency situation is battery.

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Corolinth
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So there you have it. Even had this woman been actively seeking an abortion from a doctor or clinic, this situation would still be illegal.

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Diamondeye
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Corolinth wrote:
Stabbing me in the spleen would be assault. Possibly with a deadly weapon.

Consequently, an attempted abortion could be ruled as assault, or even attempted murder considering that said abortion attempt could very likely involve forcing (or tricking) the mother to ingest a toxic chemical.

Anyhow, the point is there's plenty of good reasons why it's illegal without even beginning to consider the fetus.


If someone were stabbed it would probably be attempted murder and maybe get knocked down to felonious assault at a plea bargain. 99% of the time a stab to the abdomen is an attempt at a killing strike.

In any case, the attempted murder charge against the fetus is a recognition that the 3rd party, regardless of the abortion debate, does not have the right to end the pregnancy without the mother's consent. The abortion debate really doesn't pertain at all; no one on the pro-choice side argues that anyone other than the mother has the right to make such a decision, not even the father.

Given that, the law simply assumes that a pregnancy is most likely to result in a healthy birth if not for the actions of the attacker. If the fetus dies, it therefore was denied thelife it would have had, regardless of its status at the time of the killing. Essentially the law is saying "the debate over the rights of the mother is not relevant to an act done without the mother's consent."

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