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 Post subject: ACA Cost-Control Plan
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 7:20 am 
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http://finance.yahoo.com/news/cost-cont ... nance.html

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Cost-control plan for health care could cost you

WASHINGTON (AP) — You just might want to pay attention to the latest health insurance jargon. It could mean thousands of dollars out of your pocket.

The Obama administration has given the go-ahead for a new cost-control strategy called "reference pricing." It lets insurers and employers put a dollar limit on what health plans pay for some expensive procedures, such as knee and hip replacements.

Some experts worry that patients could be surprised with big medical bills they must pay themselves, undercutting financial protections in the new health care law. That would happen if patients picked a more expensive hospital — even if it's part of the insurer's network.

The administration's decision affects most job-based plans as well as the new insurance exchanges.

Other experts say reference pricing will help check rising premiums.

A recent policy ruling from the administration went to unusual lengths to acknowledge concerns, saying the pricing strategy "may be a subterfuge" for "otherwise prohibited limitations on coverage."

Nonetheless, the departments of Labor and Health and Human Services said reference pricing could continue. Plans must use a "reasonable method" to ensure "adequate access to quality providers." Regulators asked for public comment, saying they may publish additional guidance in the future.

HHS spokeswoman Erin Shields Britt said in a statement that the administration is monitoring the effects of reference pricing on access to quality services and will work to ensure that financial protections for consumers are not undermined.

One way the new approach is different is that it sets a dollar limit on what the health plan will pay for a given procedure. Most insurance now pays a percentage of costs, and those costs themselves can vary from hospital to hospital. Now if you pick a more expensive hospital, the insurance still pays the same percentage.

The new strategy works like this:

Your health insurance plan slaps a dollar limit on what it will pay for certain procedures, for example, hospital charges associated with knee and hip replacement operations. That's called the reference price.

Say the limit is $30,000. The plan offers you a choice of hospitals within its provider network. If you pick one that charges $40,000, you would owe $10,000 to the hospital plus your regular cost-sharing for the $30,000 that your plan covers.

The extra $10,000 is treated like an out-of-network expense, and it doesn't count toward your plan's annual limit on out-of-pocket costs.

That's crucial because under the health care law, most plans have to pick up the entire cost of care after a patient hits the annual out-of-pocket limit, currently $6,350 for single coverage and $12,700 for a family plan. Before the May 2 administration ruling, it was unclear whether reference pricing violated this key financial protection for consumers.

Some experts are concerned.

"The problem ... from the patient's perspective is that at the end of the day, that is who gets left holding the bag," said Karen Pollitz of the nonpartisan Kaiser Family Foundation.

Previously a top consumer protection regulator in the Obama administration, Pollitz said the administration ruling amounts to a substantial change for consumers.

It's not on the radar yet for most people, but the new approach is gaining ground. The Mercer benefits consulting firm said 12 percent of the largest employers were using reference pricing last year, nearly double the 7 percent in 2012.

It's been pioneered in California by CalPERS, a giant agency that manages health and retirement benefits for public employees.

CalPERS started with knee and hip replacements in 2011, steering patients to hospitals that had been vetted for quality and charged $30,000 or less.

Ann Boynton, the agency's health benefits director, said the program has been a success, with patients able to choose from about 50 hospitals.

"People do not feel like we went to bargain-basement hospitals where the quality is not good," she said. "The quality is the same, and in some instances, better."

Economist James C. Robinson of the University of California at Berkeley studied the CalPERS experiment and found not only that many patients shifted to lower-cost hospitals, saving money, but that expensive hospitals responded by cutting their prices.

Although insurers don't appear to be using reference pricing on the new health exchanges, Robinson said he thinks it's only a matter of time.

However, the strategy appears to be suitable only for a subset of medical care: procedures and tests that are frequently performed, where the prices charged vary widely but the quality of results generally does not. In addition to knee and hip replacements, that could include such procedures as MRIs and other imaging tests, cataract surgery and colonoscopies.


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Your health insurance plan slaps a dollar limit on what it will pay for certain procedures, for example, hospital charges associated with knee and hip replacement operations. That's called the reference price.

Say the limit is $30,000. The plan offers you a choice of hospitals within its provider network. If you pick one that charges $40,000, you would owe $10,000 to the hospital plus your regular cost-sharing for the $30,000 that your plan covers.

The extra $10,000 is treated like an out-of-network expense, and it doesn't count toward your plan's annual limit on out-of-pocket costs.

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PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 7:45 am 
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DFK!, SquirrelGirl, and myself have been providing this forum with real data, experience, and knowledge about the implementation paths and strategies associated with the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act since it was first brought up. The three of us actually read and discussed the entirety of the bill at length away from these forums.

This should not surprise any of you.

The ACA was engineered to funnel the United States into a Federal Governement Single-Payer System.

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PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 7:53 am 
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The only surprise to me is that the reference pricing strategy will be allowed through private carriers outside the exchanges. This means my employer sponsored plan which previously did not have anything like this will be free to introduce it next year (and within a minimum of 3 years I guarantee they, along with 90+% of other employers will). I guess tort reform was just too painful for politicians.

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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 8:02 am 
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Hopwin wrote:
The only surprise to me is that the reference pricing strategy will be allowed through private carriers outside the exchanges. This means my employer sponsored plan which previously did not have anything like this will be free to introduce it next year (and within a minimum of 3 years I guarantee they, along with 90+% of other employers will). I guess tort reform was just too painful for politicians.
This has nothing to do with Tort Reform.

The United States Federal Government is trying to price you out of health care. Medicare is THE benchmark for all reference pricing. What reference pricing really means is that the US Government wants hospitals and doctors to go out of business so they can control both the supply and the pay out for a universal demand product.

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PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 8:22 am 
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^ I believe that Medicare standards are crushing healthcare.

I meant if they really wanted the "Affordable" Care Act to lower medical costs they could have started with tort-reform, then again maybe it was intended to make healthcare costs more affordable for insurers by shifting more of the costs to the consumer.

As more time passes they appear to be forcing Medicare standards onto the private-sector and penalizing individuals who opt to buy better care ("Cadillac Plans"). Not sure what the end-game is or if one exists since the current administration has demonstrated 0 ability to think or strategize for the long-term. I don't think it would be a single-buyer program though since it was written by the insurance industry.

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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 8:52 am 
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Hopwin wrote:
I meant if they really wanted the "Affordable" Care Act to lower medical costs they could have started with tort-reform, then again maybe it was intended to make healthcare costs more affordable for insurers by shifting more of the costs to the consumer.

Tort reform is pretty much irrelevant to controlling health care costs. Outside of a few specialties, malpractice premiums are not a significant cost driver. Also, it's worth noting that if 100-200,000 Americans a year were dying due to pilot error, I doubt many people would be arguing that we should make it harder to sue pilots and airlines in order to lower ticket prices.


Last edited by RangerDave on Fri May 16, 2014 9:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 9:03 am 
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Khross wrote:
The United States Federal Government is trying to price you out of health care.

By allowing more room for the market to operate freely? This seems to allow insurers to differentiate themselves from one another and compete on the basis of their approach to reference pricing. It also more closely links what providers charge with what consumers pay, thus strengthening the price-signaling function of the market. I mean, I have objections to reference pricing as well, but it seems like it's designed to open the market to more competition and efficiency, not less.


Last edited by RangerDave on Fri May 16, 2014 9:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 9:04 am 
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No, but a lot of unnecessary tests are done to protect against lawsuits, driving up the costs.


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 9:14 am 
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RangerDave wrote:
Khross wrote:
The United States Federal Government is trying to price you out of health care.

By allowing more room for the market to operate freely? This seems to allow insurers to differentiate themselves from one another and compete on the basis of their approach to reference pricing. It also more closely links what providers charge with what consumers pay, thus strengthening the price-signaling function of the market. I mean, I have objections to reference pricing as well, but it seems like it's designed to open the market to more competition and efficiency, not less.
No. Categorically no, in point of fact.

If you had read my post, you would have keyed in on the fact that Reference Pricing is, has been, and will continue to be set by Medicare/Medicaid allowable limits. It has been that way for at least 35 years, in point of fact.

This doesn't allow for more competition; it price fixes privately owned facilities out of the market and service sector. Of course, no one has said word one about the fact that medical licensing in the US now requires you accept Medicaid/Medicare.

The Federal Government is trying to price you out of healthcare, so they push forward with Obama's national single-payer agenda.

Beyond that, how on earth can government imposed externalities and supply curve modulations increase competition? Seriously, RD, your post makes no sense: regulation does not spur competition. That's a point blank fact established by the ludicrous governance experiences of the last century. And some of us lived through most of them.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 9:19 am 
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RangerDave wrote:
Hopwin wrote:
I meant if they really wanted the "Affordable" Care Act to lower medical costs they could have started with tort-reform, then again maybe it was intended to make healthcare costs more affordable for insurers by shifting more of the costs to the consumer.

Tort reform is pretty much irrelevant to controlling health care costs. Outside of a few specialties, malpractice premiums are not a significant cost driver. Also, it's worth noting that if 100-200,000 Americans a year were dying due to pilot error, I doubt many people would be arguing that we should make it harder to sue pilots and airlines in order to lower ticket prices.

???
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/15/busin ... nance&vm=r

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Wooed north by his wife, who is originally from Prince Edward Island, Dr. Bannon said: “I’m happier here than I’ve ever been. I’ve done so much better here financially.” When he left Florida, his malpractice insurance cost $50,000 annually. On Prince Edward Island, thanks to a provincial government subsidy, his annual cost of $8,000 is reduced to just $1,000 a year.

As a general surgeon still in practice, Dr. Bannon knows Canada’s medical system firsthand.


$50,000 per year per doctor in a general field seems high to me.

Also, retarded false analogy with pilots and airlines.

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PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 9:34 am 
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Actually, pilots factor into this more than you know, Hopwin.

Here's a good example of some NTSB propaganda:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/small-plane-cr ... d=18760176
ABC News wrote:
For private plane pilots, their final terrifying, twisting view of earth that leads to a crash is all too common and devastating, but that could be avoided with proper training, the National Transportation Safety Board tells ABC News.


Last I checked, according to the NTSB, there were 1.24 fatal accidents per 100,000 general aviation flight hours in 2010 and 6.78 total accidents per 100,000 general aviation flight hours.

That data leads to a 50% premium increase on my health insurance and a 100% premium increase on my life insurance, per Federal guidelines, for holding my Private Pilot's Certificate.

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PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 9:54 am 
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No.

Malpractice insurance is liability insurance.

Life insurance and health insurance are not even though the pricing can/is risk-based.

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PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 10:20 am 
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Hopwin:

I was pointing out that they don't use the real data; they just set standards based on what feels right.

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PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 10:48 am 
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Khross wrote:
Hopwin:

I was pointing out that they don't use the real data; they just set standards based on what feels right.

Yeah I realized that after hitting submit but was too lazy to delete, just my inner insurance nerd coming out. Then I started geeking out further about how they are different.

Malpractice -> Exclusively 3rd party benefit
Health insurnace -> Exclusively 1st party benefit
Life insurance -> 1st party benefit (Estate of) and/or 3rd party benefit if purchased by someone with an insurable interest in your life

Weird.

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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2014 12:08 am 
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Khross, there's some serious logical disconnect going on here, some key piece of information is missing. You have just argued that the government removing a restriction on insurers will drive private medical providers out of business. Insurers are not required to implement a reference pricing scheme. If they do so, it's because it makes economic sense for them to do so. Given that, why haven't insurers implemented this reference pricing scheme in the past? Did the ACA prohibit it before this point, or was it some other regulation that the Obama administration is now changing? Because the way I see it, you are essentially arguing that the government exerting less control over health insurance (by removing whatever regulation prevented insurers from implementing this scheme beforehand) directly results in the government having more control over health insurance. Uhm, so, is single payer completely inevitable no matter what the government does?

The fact that the reference pricing is indexed to Medicare is irrelevant, even if this were not mandated by law, the insurers would just do that themselves if they would make money off it. If implementing reference pricing indexed to Medicare doesn't make economic sense for insurers, then they won't and this new regulation will have no effect. If it does make economic sense, then they would do it even if Medicare indexing wasn't mandatory.

Even if the government is otherwise determined to force us into a single-payer system, it is logically impossible for the regulation change outlined in the original post to contribute to it.

Also, you've made this point a lot:

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Of course, no one has said word one about the fact that medical licensing in the US now requires you accept Medicaid/Medicare.


....how does this even work? The majority of doctors are employees and work for a salary, they do not have their own practices. They have absolutely no control over what forms of payment their employer will accept, in fact they are not involved in this decision making process at all. If one of these employers doesn't accept Medicare, are all of his physician employees required to quit their jobs or lose their medical licenses?


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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2014 10:03 pm 
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I think it's fairly obvious that this method is designed to push single-payer through generation of public outrage, not due to economic harm to the insurers themselves.

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PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2014 8:06 pm 
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Xequecal wrote:
Khross, there's some serious logical disconnect going on here, some key piece of information is missing. You have just argued that the government removing a restriction on insurers will drive private medical providers out of business. Insurers are not required to implement a reference pricing scheme. If they do so, it's because it makes economic sense for them to do so. Given that, why haven't insurers implemented this reference pricing scheme in the past? Did the ACA prohibit it before this point, or was it some other regulation that the Obama administration is now changing? Because the way I see it, you are essentially arguing that the government exerting less control over health insurance (by removing whatever regulation prevented insurers from implementing this scheme beforehand) directly results in the government having more control over health insurance. Uhm, so, is single payer completely inevitable no matter what the government does?

The fact that the reference pricing is indexed to Medicare is irrelevant, even if this were not mandated by law, the insurers would just do that themselves if they would make money off it. If implementing reference pricing indexed to Medicare doesn't make economic sense for insurers, then they won't and this new regulation will have no effect. If it does make economic sense, then they would do it even if Medicare indexing wasn't mandatory.

Even if the government is otherwise determined to force us into a single-payer system, it is logically impossible for the regulation change outlined in the original post to contribute to it.

Also, you've made this point a lot:

Quote:
Of course, no one has said word one about the fact that medical licensing in the US now requires you accept Medicaid/Medicare.


....how does this even work? The majority of doctors are employees and work for a salary, they do not have their own practices. They have absolutely no control over what forms of payment their employer will accept, in fact they are not involved in this decision making process at all. If one of these employers doesn't accept Medicare, are all of his physician employees required to quit their jobs or lose their medical licenses?


Most doctors I know do run their own practice, even if that practice is based in a hospital or ER. That's why you get billed for "Physician's services" separately from your ER bill, at least here in Ohio.

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PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 12:32 am 
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To be honest, I've checked and can't find anything to corroborate the claim that doctors have to accept Medicare or lose their licenses. Massachusetts is the only state that had such a bill, but it didn't pass and predates the ACA anyways.


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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 9:11 am 
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What the hell is the administration playing at?

http://nation.foxnews.com/2014/05/26/ob ... -exchanges
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It figures the Obama administration would wait for a three-day weekend to announce its latest executive rule change to Obamacare (aka the “law of the land”).

This one is a doozy. The implications are so far-reaching that the official White House newspaper, the New York Times, buried the story by Robert Pear on page A12 of the New York edition. Here’s the gist of it:

Many employers had thought they could shift health costs to the government by sending their employees to a health insurance exchange with a tax-free contribution of cash to help pay premiums, but the Obama administration has squelched the idea in a new ruling. Such arrangements do not satisfy the health care law, the administration said, and employers may be subject to a tax penalty of $100 a day — or $36,500 a year — for each employee who goes into the individual marketplace.

The ruling this month, by the Internal Revenue Service, blocks any wholesale move by employers to dump employees into the exchanges.


Many employers — some that now offer coverage and some that do not — had concluded that it would be cheaper to provide each employee with a lump sum of money to buy insurance on an exchange, instead of providing coverage directly.

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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 10:50 am 
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Hopwin:

It's all good; just remember, this is about saving everyone money on health insurance according, Xequecal.

Xequecal:

There's no logical disconnect. You don't understand what reference pricing is, so I'll explain in short words.

Providers bill you based on their costs, labor, and overhead for a procedure.

Medicare says that said procedure, regardless of real costs and liabilities, can only cost X dollars.

Insurance companies are now only required to paid X dollars, increasing patient liability for out of pocket expenses, because the prices exceed reference pricing.

This does not increase competition; this increases the cost of health care for the end-user and eliminates the ability for service providers to actually break even on their procedures. And in the case of for-profit entities, which are most private physicians and a large number of hospitals, it's a back-end mechanism of eliminating profits from health care.

We're already subsidizing the rest of the planet with our government, now we're going to subsidize our own government expenditures with end-users dollars and further government price fixing.

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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 11:15 am 
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Khross wrote:
Hopwin:

It's all good; just remember, this is about saving everyone money on health insurance according, Xequecal.

Xequecal:

There's no logical disconnect. You don't understand what reference pricing is, so I'll explain in short words.

Providers bill you based on their costs, labor, and overhead for a procedure.

Medicare says that said procedure, regardless of real costs and liabilities, can only cost X dollars.

Insurance companies are now only required to paid X dollars, increasing patient liability for out of pocket expenses, because the prices exceed reference pricing.

This does not increase competition; this increases the cost of health care for the end-user and eliminates the ability for service providers to actually break even on their procedures. And in the case of for-profit entities, which are most private physicians and a large number of hospitals, it's a back-end mechanism of eliminating profits from health care.

We're already subsidizing the rest of the planet with our government, now we're going to subsidize our own government expenditures with end-users dollars and further government price fixing.


The point you're missing is they didn't make reference pricing mandatory. So, why didn't insurers only pay X dollars in the past? If it was because this was illegal, well, then you've just admitted that government intrusion in the health care market actually had a positive effect and if not checked by government the insurance companies will destroy the health care system. Oh, wait, that's pretty much the stock liberal position right now.

The fact remains is all that was done was the removal of a restriction on a private entity. If this results in bankrupting providers then guess what? We really did need to get rid of private insurers because they have just demonstrated that when you get rid of the rules on them they kill our health care.


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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 12:31 pm 
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Xequecal:

Your argument is so fallacious I don't even know where to start.

All I've proven is that the government has been contorting the cost of health care for decades. I've even explained how they did it. Have you ever read your insurance provider's Explanation of Benefits letter that they are required by law to send you?

There's a column labelled "Provider Responsibility." That "provider" is the Hospital or Ambulance Service or Physician or other health care provider. In your mind, because prior law required them to write that off, switching to reference pricing for insurance provider's benefits means the doctors were gouging patients? Seriously?

Dude, you're so wet on this subject that you should just stop talking.

And government intrusion in health care didn't have a positive effect ...

I'm not even sure how you come to that conclusion. Government intrusion has had health care providers eating material losses for decades. And these material losses are by and large caused because the government sets the value of a procedure, regardless of all the extant market pressures.

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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 12:38 pm 
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In the liberal's mind, any profit generating enterprise is evil and exploitative because they make money. Ideas such as value and worth are foreign concepts to the liberal. When you attempt to explain them to the liberal, he becomes confused. He uses phrases he doesn't understand. The liberal will shout slogans to obfuscate his confusion.

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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 12:53 pm 
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Marx's labor theory of value and surplus value have tainted generations of minds and devoured the reasonableness that was once there.

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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 1:21 pm 
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I have a dumb question.

Suppose I have cancer and an individual policy through the exchanges.
Because cancer is expensive to treat my carrier has to raise rates for 2015.
Since I can't be denied coverage due to a pre-existing condition, and coverages are mandated equal I go back to the exchanges and jump to the cheapest insurer out there.
My new carrier starts to pick up my medical bills which they haven't priced for and in 2016 they file a huge rate increase because they lost money on me.
Since I can't be denied coverage due to a pre-existing condition and coverages are mandated equal, I go back to the exchanges and jump to the cheapest insurer out there again.

From the outside looking in: As a healthy person on the cheaper insurance, when my rates jump hugely (because all the cancer people switched last year) won't I also go to the marketplace and pick the cheapest option?

Doesn't this create a boom-and-bust cycle for insurers?

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