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Bond v. US https://gladerebooted.net/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=10968 |
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Author: | RangerDave [ Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:52 pm ] |
Post subject: | Bond v. US |
Hey, remember when we were discussing the Bundy ranch situation, and Elm was arguing that the federal government can't use the Treaty Power to do anything that isn't already an enumerated power in the Constitution, and I was arguing that while I agree the Treaty Power can't be used to violate an express prohibition, I wasn't convinced it was limited to only expressly enumerated powers? Elmarnieh wrote: RangerDave wrote: Elmarnieh wrote: RangerDave wrote: So, your argument is that the Federal government cannot agree to do something by treaty that it is not expressly empowered to do under the Constitution? I'm not sure I agree. How can you not agree. It states this very such thing in the Constitution when it talks about treaties. It states what thing when it talks about treaties? All the Constitution says is that the President has the power to enter into treaties (with the advice and consent of the Senate). And, incidentally, the Supreme Court rejected your argument in 1920 (See, Missouri v. Holland) Elmarnieh wrote: Logically how can entity that gets authority from 1 source (the states) grant itself additional power from that source without that source's consent? That's not what's happening. The states/people granted to the federal government the power to enter into treaties and to make war, both of which often involve the acquisition and/or loss of territory. The Louisiana Purchase was an exercise of the treaty power, and the acquisition of Nevada was an exercise of both the treaty power and the war-making power. Again treaties can't have the federal government do anything it isn't already empowered to do so - so sayeth the part of the Constitution that grants the treaty power. Well, it seems Justice Scalia agrees with Elm: Volokh Consiracy wrote: Several of my co-bloggers (Eugene, Jonathan, and Ilya) have already noted today’s opinion in Bond v. United States. As they have explained, Ms. Bond was prosecuted for violation of the Chemical Weapons Convention Implementation Act. She argued (1) that the statute did not reach her conduct; and, in the alternative, (2) if the statute does reach her conduct, then Congress had no constitutional power to enact it. Six justices agreed with her on the (relatively uninteresting) first proposition, and the other three justices agreed with her on the (extremely important) second proposition. My co-bloggers have well explained the majority opinion and the Chief’s seeming predilection for avoiding constitutional questions with (dubious?) statutory interpretations. I will just add a few words about Justice Scalia’s concurrence, which Justice Thomas joined. In my view, it is extremely important, and exactly right. For Justice Scalia, it is crystal clear that the statute reaches Ms. Bond’s conduct. “Since the Act is clear, the real question this case presents is whether the Act is constitutional as applied to petitioner.” As to that question, the government argued that because the United States had entered into a treaty concerning chemical weapons, Congress automatically has the power to enact a statute on this topic, even if it would have lacked this power otherwise. It argued, in other words, that a treaty can increase the legislative power of Congress. And indeed, in 1920, the Supreme Court, per Justice Holmes, seemed to say exactly that. Holmes wrote: “If the treaty is valid there can be no dispute about the validity of the [implementing] statute under Article I, § 8, as a necessary and proper means to execute the powers of the government.” Missouri v. Holland, 252 U.S. 416, 432 (1920). ...Justice Scalia writes: “Petitioner and her amici press us to consider whether there is anything to this ipse dixit. The Constitution’s text and structure show that there is not.” He is exactly right, and his opinion is a masterpiece. In short, as Scalia explains: "[A] power to help the President make treaties is not a power to implement treaties already made. See generally Rosenkranz, Executing the Treaty Power, 118 Harv. L. Rev. 1867 (2005). Once a treaty has been made, Congress’s power to do what is “necessary and proper” to assist the making of treaties drops out of the picture. To legislate compliance with the United States’ treaty obligations, Congress must rely upon its independent (though quite robust) Article I, § 8, powers." ...Justice Scalia begins with the constitutional axiom that Congress has limited and enumerated powers, and then explains how the government’s argument would constitute a “loophole” to that fundamental principle. If the government is right, “then the possibilities of what the Federal Government may accomplish, with the right treaty in hand, are endless and hardly farfetched …. It could begin, as some scholars have suggested, with abrogation of this Court’s constitutional rulings.” ...But this is, as Scalia says, “the least of the problem.” The government’s position “places Congress only one treaty away from acquiring a general police power.” But countless canonical opinions insist that Congress can have no such power. ...Justice Scalia’s opinion is a masterpiece. Unfortunately, he was only writing for himself and Justice Thomas. However, it is important to note that the other seven expressed no view about whether a treaty can increase the legislative power of Congress. (There is actually a hint that Justice Alito may agree with Justices Scalia and Thomas; although he did not join Justice Scalia’s concurrence, he did sign onto Part III of of Justice Thomas’s concurrence, which says that Missouri v. Holland “upheld a statute implementing [a] treaty based on an improperly broad view of the Necessary and Proper Clause.”) So Justice Scalia’s powerful opinion went unanswered, and today’s score on this point is 2-0. Missouri v. Holland remains the law of the land, but in a proper case, it may yet be overruled. The majority opinion didn't reach this Constitutional question, so this is just Scalia (and Thomas) speaking, not the official position of the Court (yet), but still...score one for our resident Muppet! |
Author: | Rorinthas [ Tue Jun 03, 2014 6:22 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Bond v. US |
No treaty can supersede the Constitution. If a treaty doesn't supersede the Constitution, (you can argue this one does, but I don't think that was her argument) then I guess it would only be "necessary and proper" for congress to enact laws that ensure that the US keeps up its treaty requirements |
Author: | Diamondeye [ Wed Jun 04, 2014 12:25 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Bond v. US |
Elmo does not score any points for having one Justice agree with him. there have been many Justices over the years, with many positions. Elmo's idea of an "enumerated power" itself is untenable since he routinely ignores "necessary and proper", and tries to get around any power he doesn't like by complaining that the specific use of the power he doesn't like isn't enumerated as a power itself. As to the specific case at hand, no one has ever argued that treaties allow an end run around the limits of granted powers... well, one person did, but not lately. Treaties by their nature are agreements with foreign powers for the conduct of the nation as a whole. To take the example from the previous thread, treaties are well understood to often involve the exchange of land. If the government does take land into the United States, that (in theory) should not affect the private ownership of that land, as the residents are now residing within the United States and are entitled to the protection of the 4th Amendment (even if they are not citizens). Similarly, if the situation were reversed and the US ceded land to a foreign power, Congress would not suddenly gain the power to confiscate the land from its owners to turn it over to the new power even if the treaty demanded Americans remove themselves. In practice, once the new power arrived it might forcibly remove the residents, but obviously that foreign government would not be subject to the Constitution in the first place. Justice Scalia pointing out the difference between making a treaty and implementing it would have no effect either. If the government enters a treaty by which the nation acquires land, no further action is needed to make that land administratively part of the country.. it just is. In the event someone contests that with force, the Constitution provides ample means for the government to deal with the aggressor. Either way, no avenue is available to argue the government can't acquire land or can't control land outside Washington DC. |
Author: | RangerDave [ Wed Jun 04, 2014 10:11 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Bond v. US |
Diamondeye wrote: Elmo does not score any points for having one Justice agree with him. |
Author: | Elmarnieh [ Wed Jun 04, 2014 10:42 am ] |
Post subject: | |
Necessary and proper clause DE specifically stats that "the US Constitution and the laws made in pursuance thereof are the supreme laws of the land". This doesn't conflict at all with my position. I've had this discussion with lawyers and politicians (and those who are both) and they always smirk and try to change the subject when I point out the actual text of the supremacy clause because it is not at all a clause that grants unlimited power. It simply recognizing the Constitution as supreme and laws related to it as supreme in the areas the Constitution applies. |
Author: | Elmarnieh [ Wed Jun 04, 2014 10:46 am ] |
Post subject: | |
Logically RD how would your idea even work with a system of limited government? All the government would have to do to gain any power it wishes is to engage in a treaty with another nation that makes no demands of the other nation and all and simply grants more powers to the federal government. The US and *insert 3rd world nation that is getting 5 billion just for having their name here* agree that the Government of the United States of America shall inspect the anus of every person in the US no less than yearly. Boom Constitutional anal probing. Boom anything else. |
Author: | Rorinthas [ Wed Jun 04, 2014 5:12 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Bond v. US |
Such a treaty would violate the 4th amendment and could be d3clared unconstitutional Sent from my GT-P3113 using Tapatalk |
Author: | Elmarnieh [ Wed Jun 04, 2014 5:32 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Bond v. US |
Not if the treaty granted extra constitutional powers because it was a treaty. |
Author: | Khross [ Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:49 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Bond v. US |
Diamondeye: The Constitution of the United States of America wrote: AMENDMENT IX The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. The Constitution of the United States of America wrote: AMENDMENT X Fairly certain, the Ninth and Tenth Amendments actually have meaning. Our government, at the Federal level, has been grossly remiss in adhering to either or enforcing either, but they were part of the Supreme Law of the Land in 1791. The first clause of the Tenth Amendment is particularly important, because it quite nicely establishes the Constitution as a negative rights document. "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution ..." is a rather large group of powers. The powers delegated to the United States by the Constitution, on the other hand, is a very limited and specific set of powers outlined in the document itself.The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people. I mean, hell, we only have to look at Article 1, Section 9 of the Constitution to see a specific directive that our current government is quite content to ignore: The Constitution of the United States wrote: No preference shall be given by any regulation of commerce or revenue to the ports of one state over those of another: nor shall vessels bound to, or from, one state, be obliged to enter, clear or pay duties in another. There are no amendments changing this part of the Constitution, but it's been held in almost complete disregard by the Federal Government since 1855. They violate the former half of this stipulation on a regular basis and in egregious ways.As to the specifics of your post, one case in recent memory makes one of your statements inaccurate: Diamondeye wrote: Similarly, if the situation were reversed and the US ceded land to a foreign power, Congress would not suddenly gain the power to confiscate the land from its owners to turn it over to the new power even if the treaty demanded Americans remove themselves. In practice, once the new power arrived it might forcibly remove the residents, but obviously that foreign government would not be subject to the Constitution in the first place. Kelo v. New London pretty much invalidates your claim here. Any governmental body can seize, without just recompense, privately owned property for projected increased tax revenues. And one of the large problems with the Kelo Ruling is that it does give the Federal government the authority to seize land from its owners to turn it over to other entities for government gain.
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Author: | Diamondeye [ Wed Jun 04, 2014 10:40 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Bond v. US |
Khross wrote: Diamondeye: [/quote]The Constitution of the United States of America wrote: AMENDMENT IX The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. The Constitution of the United States of America wrote: AMENDMENT X Fairly certain, the Ninth and Tenth Amendments actually have meaning. Our government, at the Federal level, has been grossly remiss in adhering to either or enforcing either, but they were part of the Supreme Law of the Land in 1791. The first clause of the Tenth Amendment is particularly important, because it quite nicely establishes the Constitution as a negative rights document. "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution ..." is a rather large group of powers. The powers delegated to the United States by the Constitution, on the other hand, is a very limited and specific set of powers outlined in the document itself.The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people. The power to make treaties involves the power to do anything normally expected under a treaty. If it didn't, there would be no point in the power. Other nations would expect the United States to have a means of conducting normal international business. That does not mean that treaties can be used as domestic laws to make an end run around the rest of the Constitution; treaties by nature are for dealing with foreign powers. They do not normally include requirements to enforce specific laws domestically. Quote: I mean, hell, we only have to look at Article 1, Section 9 of the Constitution to see a specific directive that our current government is quite content to ignore: [/quote]The Constitution of the United States wrote: No preference shall be given by any regulation of commerce or revenue to the ports of one state over those of another: nor shall vessels bound to, or from, one state, be obliged to enter, clear or pay duties in another. There are no amendments changing this part of the Constitution, but it's been held in almost complete disregard by the Federal Government since 1855. They violate the former half of this stipulation on a regular basis and in egregious ways.Seeing as some states are landlocked, this premise was stillborn from the beginning. In any case, this has nothing to do with the matter at hand... or perhaps, since its been allegedly totally disregarded for the last 159 years it just doesn't actually mean what you think it means. As to the specifics of your post, one case in recent memory makes one of your statements inaccurate: Quote: Kelo v. New London pretty much invalidates your claim here. Any governmental body can seize, without just recompense, privately owned property for projected increased tax revenues. And one of the large problems with the Kelo Ruling is that it does give the Federal government the authority to seize land from its owners to turn it over to other entities for government gain. Kelo did not grant any power whatsoever to seize land without compensation; what it did was permit seizing land with compensation for purpose of selling or providing to private enterprise. It could not simply seize land to turn over to a foreign power simply because a treaty had been entered into; it would have to provide compensation under the 4th amendment. So no, it does not invalidate my point at all. Kelo addressed the reasons for seizure of assets under compensation, not the process. As for "just compensation", no the government has not been relieved of the need to provide it. No I do not care if you think the compensationin any particular case is just or not. Just compensation does not mean "what Khross thinks should be given." |
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