Talya wrote:
The way is shut. It was made by those who are crooks, And the crooks keep it. The way is shut.
Let me be the first to give credit for the LoTR reference.
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| Political Question https://gladerebooted.net/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1108 |
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| Author: | Aizle [ Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Political Question |
There's a lot of absolutes that get thrown around here about politics, so I'm actually very curious to see the results of this. Please carefully read the question, paying special attention to the "ALL" in your answer. Edit: Clarifications - Consider these to be national level politicians. I specifically had the Senate and House in mind, but any national level politician (i.e. President or cabinet members) would be appropriate. - Whether they are a career politician or not IMHO isn't overly relevant, as there are some who are and aren't elected all the time. Think of who the current crop of national politicians are and go from there. - I'm defining corrupt by not only any willful legal wrongdoing (taking bribes, etc.) but also putting personal gain ahead of the needs of the constituents. By needs, I mean not what you personally think those needs should be, but that the politician puts their own well being ahead of what they claim to support. As I've edited this, I've turned on re-voting of folks want to change their answer. |
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| Author: | DFK! [ Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Define corrupt. Edit: Not being snarky, it's a legit question. Corruption could have a finite legal line behind it, or be a vague moral implication. I'd need to know which before I could answer. |
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| Author: | Talya [ Fri Dec 11, 2009 1:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
I had to vote on the assumption of "successful long-term politician at a federal level." It's entirely possible for a small town mayor or sheriff to have integrity and be good men. However, I believe the political process itself requires one to be a complete scumbag to become a notable success at higher levels of politics. It's not that they're scumbags because they are successful politicians -- no, they're successful politicians because they are scumbags. The political game itself is entirely corrupt. If they were honest, decent people, they'd have been defeated long ago. |
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| Author: | DFK! [ Fri Dec 11, 2009 1:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: |
Talya wrote: I had to vote on the assumption of "successful long-term politician at a federal level." Hmm, also a critical distinction that needs to be made. |
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| Author: | darksiege [ Fri Dec 11, 2009 1:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: |
Talya wrote: I had to vote on the assumption of "successful long-term politician at a federal level." It's entirely possible for a small town mayor or sheriff to have integrity and be good men. However, I believe the political process itself requires one to be a complete scumbag to become a notable success at higher levels of politics. It's not that they're scumbags because they are successful politicians -- no, they're successful politicians because they are scumbags. The political game itself is entirely corrupt. If they were honest, decent people, they'd have been defeated long ago. This, very much so. |
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| Author: | Monte [ Fri Dec 11, 2009 1:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Talya - Senator Russ Feingold, D-WI. |
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| Author: | Raltar [ Fri Dec 11, 2009 1:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
I fully agree with Taly. |
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| Author: | Lonedar [ Fri Dec 11, 2009 2:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
I find the current results of this poll to be interesting, if not entirely surprising. |
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| Author: | TheRiov [ Fri Dec 11, 2009 2:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
should be public poll, I'm wondering if the people I think are voting one way are the people I suspect are voting that way. |
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| Author: | DFK! [ Fri Dec 11, 2009 2:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: |
TheRiov wrote: should be public poll, I'm wondering if the people I think are voting one way are the people I suspect are voting that way. I'd tell you how I voted, if I had done so. I haven't seen any clarification on either of the two posed critical issues, so I will not contribute to such a flawed poll. |
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| Author: | TheRiov [ Fri Dec 11, 2009 2:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
first rule of writing a B+ high school essay test: Question all definitions, deny all terms. |
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| Author: | Müs [ Fri Dec 11, 2009 2:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Scumbags. Every last one of them. |
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| Author: | darksiege [ Fri Dec 11, 2009 2:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: |
Müs wrote: Scumbags. Every last one of them. I really like Oscar Goodman though. But I am convinced he is Old Vegas Mafia style. |
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| Author: | Mookhow [ Fri Dec 11, 2009 3:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Political Question |
Many are, but the majority are actually trying to do what they think is best (however misguided). |
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| Author: | Kaffis Mark V [ Fri Dec 11, 2009 4:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
I chose B. |
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| Author: | Midgen [ Fri Dec 11, 2009 5:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Unfortunately, in order to accurately respond to the poll, I'd need a strict definition of the work "Politician" in regards to the context of your question. I voted B, only because I refuse to believe that there isn't at least one honest, hard working, well intentioned person out there politic'n. |
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| Author: | Talya [ Fri Dec 11, 2009 5:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: |
Midgen wrote: I voted B, only because I refuse to believe that there isn't at least one honest, hard working, well intentioned person out there politic'n. I certainly believe some try. They don't get very far, though. The only path to success in politics is to throw aside all morals and ethics and be more ruthless, ambitious, and opportunistic than the other guy. The way is shut. It was made by those who are crooks, And the crooks keep it. The way is shut. |
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| Author: | FarSky [ Fri Dec 11, 2009 5:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Political Question |
Mookhow wrote: Many are, but the majority are actually trying to do what they think is best (however misguided).
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| Author: | Slythe [ Fri Dec 11, 2009 7:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Re: |
Talya wrote: The way is shut. It was made by those who are crooks, And the crooks keep it. The way is shut. Let me be the first to give credit for the LoTR reference.
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| Author: | Elmarnieh [ Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
B because of one known exception. |
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| Author: | Micheal [ Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
C. Because I want to believe. |
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| Author: | Diamondeye [ Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Political Question |
Really, the answer could be all of them except E; I don't think there is anyone that thinks ALL politicians are trying to do what they think is right. The problem, however, is that "corruption" can mean a lot of different things. Some people define "corruption" to mean anything they disagree with because they think that politicians have a legal and moral obligation to do things one and only one way (their way) and even the smallest deviation is "corrupt". Other people define anything they find distasteful as corrupt, regardless of whether or not they agree with the political end. For example, some people regard using an opponent's sexual deviations as a weapon as corrupt and regard the sexual deviations themselves as corrupt. It's possible to find something at least mildly ruthless in almost any political matter and thereby define it as corrupt. "Corruption" can mean a lot of different things depending on whether we mean moral, legal, and to what degree. Is receiving for example a pen as a gift that's worth $10 more than the ethics regulation allows corrupt? Yes, in a strictly legal sense, but that number is arbitrary and that law is partly there to prevent the appearance of corruption. While preventing even the appearance of corruption is a worthy goal, it has the inherent moral hazard that it creates an incentive for opponents or the press to fabricate the appearance of corruption as a political weapon or simply to sell news. I went with the middle option simply because I see it as the least subjective; indisputable corruptin is not all that hard to find but by the same token it still only accounts for a minority of the politicians out there. I think that more extreme answers are really arrived at by a degree of assigning the label "corruption" to simply "not getting my way", especially when talking about politicians that represent someone else in the first place. The merits of a republic aside, one part of that system is that we simply don't always get our way. We've rehashed over and over the problems of that, but that is the way we're set up right now. I've chosen to ignore the issue of what constitutes a "politician" and simply point out the subjective nature of the "corruption" element simply because no one here will ever agree to a definition of corruption that doesn't lead to the conclusion they want to believe. |
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| Author: | Beryllin [ Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Political Question |
C. I think most honestly believe they are doing the right thing. Even those I disagree with. Some of them are corrupt, imo. Bribe-takers, for example. |
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| Author: | Noggel [ Sat Dec 12, 2009 5:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Political Question |
My thinking is along DE's lines. My county has the dishonor of being somewhat on the national level for corruption this past year. This AP article counts 22 people so far revealed in a corruption investigation in the area. Some of these are not small things, either. I do not think most politicians are involved in stuff so blatantly corrupt. On the other hand, there are certainly morally corrupt things that can be done, and I think are done quite often by probably the vast majority. Using the influence of your office, for example, to get your way in a lot of things (contracts, nepotism, and so on) falls under this heading. This extends outside of politics, I suppose, but is certainly nothing you want your politicians doing. Politicians are also uniquely in the position of choosing between the greater good for their constituents vs their own interests. I can easily see a politician in a situation where they think choice A may be the best choice for his office to make, but choice B is also not bad and helps out them, a friend, a family member, etc. Pretty easy in that situation to go with B and get away with it. But then again I was born and raised in the county of home to those above two links, so perhaps I have lower expectations when it comes to things like nepotism. :p |
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| Author: | Arathain Kelvar [ Sun Dec 13, 2009 12:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
The problem lies with the type of personality that is able to be successful in politics. Take me, for example. I've always had an interest in politics, and I firmly believe that I could participate in such a way as to be true to the people I govern. However, when I look at the wheeling and dealing that needs to occur to even have a shot at the lowest level of politics, I completely lose interest. I have no interest in bending myself in so many ways. There is also the issue of constant temptation. I must be honest and say that I am not overly tempted on an average day. While I am certain I could handle it, I can also understand the problem associated with this. |
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