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So like republicans win or something? https://gladerebooted.net/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=11168 |
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Author: | Müs [ Wed Nov 05, 2014 2:33 pm ] |
Post subject: | So like republicans win or something? |
Ave bossa nova! Similis duci seneca. |
Author: | Midgen [ Thu Nov 06, 2014 12:05 am ] |
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Author: | Micheal [ Thu Nov 06, 2014 5:00 am ] |
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Lets see, the great majority of the large population centers are blue. Small town America is red. There is a good joke about population density in there somewhere. |
Author: | Xequecal [ Thu Nov 06, 2014 8:10 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: So like republicans win or something? |
I'm just wondering what stupid parliamentary trick is going to get pulled out this time in order to ignore the eventual filibusters. Can the nuclear option and budget reconciliation be used multiple times, or are they each a one time thing and they have to come up with something else? |
Author: | Khross [ Thu Nov 06, 2014 9:48 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: So like republicans win or something? |
Xequecal wrote: I'm just wondering what stupid parliamentary trick is going to get pulled out this time in order to ignore the eventual filibusters. Can the nuclear option and budget reconciliation be used multiple times, or are they each a one time thing and they have to come up with something else? You don't pay much attention to Congress do you? Harry Reid rescinded Senate Rule #22. There are no more filibusters. You only need a simple majority to close debate.
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Author: | Diamondeye [ Thu Nov 06, 2014 11:48 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: So like republicans win or something? |
Nothing indicates there has been any change to Rule 22 |
Author: | Khross [ Thu Nov 06, 2014 1:49 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: So like republicans win or something? |
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/poli ... e/3662445/ Quote: Fifty-two Senate Democrats and independents voted to weaken the power of the filibuster. The change reduces the threshold from 60 votes to 51 votes for Senate approval of executive and judicial nominees against unanimous GOP opposition. Three Democrats — Sens. Mark Pryor of Arkansas, Joe Manchin of West Virginia and Carl Levin of Michigan — opposed the change. Senate Rule 22 was changed for nominations outside of the Supreme Court, effectively rescinding Rule 22.The rule change does not apply to Supreme Court nominees, who are still subject to a 60-vote filibuster threshold, or to legislation. You should really pay more attention, since this was discussed on these very forums. |
Author: | Rorinthas [ Thu Nov 06, 2014 1:55 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: So like republicans win or something? |
Xequecal wrote: I'm just wondering what stupid parliamentary trick is going to get pulled out this time in order to ignore the eventual filibusters. Can the nuclear option and budget reconciliation be used multiple times, or are they each a one time thing and they have to come up with something else? You mean like it was with Obama care? I will agree with you that the Republicans shouldn't use that B.S even if you won't agree with me the Democrats shouldn't either. |
Author: | Xequecal [ Thu Nov 06, 2014 2:01 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: So like republicans win or something? |
Khross wrote: Senate Rule 22 was changed for nominations outside of the Supreme Court, effectively rescinding Rule 22. You should really pay more attention, since this was discussed on these very forums. Uhm, according to your own link it doesn't apply to legislation, so "no more filibusters" is kind of a stretch. I'm surprised this just passed now. Didn't Republicans already use this to break a Democratic filibuster of Bush's nominees during his term? |
Author: | Rorinthas [ Thu Nov 06, 2014 2:14 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: So like republicans win or something? |
They threatened to it never came to pass. I was against it then too and said as much here. Well on the here at was at the time The just of my dissent being. We'll be out of power someday and they'll use it against us. Also see my previous post |
Author: | Arathain Kelvar [ Fri Nov 07, 2014 1:17 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: So like republicans win or something? |
Xequecal wrote: I'm surprised this just passed now. Didn't Republicans already use this to break a Democratic filibuster of Bush's nominees during his term? It was tabled amongst outrage by Democrats, which always makes for a fun "compare the quote" event. Reid, 2005 wrote: REID: “The American people, in effect, reject the nuclear option because they see it for what it is–an abuse of power, arrogance of power. Lord Acton said power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. … That is what is going on. The rules are being changed in the middle of the game. They are breaking the rules to change the rules. Regardless of one’s political affiliation, Americans understand this is a partisan political grab.” (Sen. Reid, Congressional Record, S.4238, 4/26/05) Obama 2005 wrote: "What they do not expect is for one party, be it Republican or Democrat, to change the rules in the middle of the game so they can make all the decisions while the other party is told to sit down and keep quiet.” “I sense that talk of the nuclear option is more about power than about fairness.” McConnell, 2005 wrote: “I think the president is entitled to an up-or-down--that is simple majority--vote on nominations, both to his Cabinet and to the executive branch and also to the judiciary. The filibuster was not used for 200 years. The country did just fine. Sometimes the court would jag off to the left, and sometimes it would slide over to the right. Presidents trying to mold the Supreme Court is nothing new. It's not inappropriate. And we need to get back to tradition, and the tradition is a majority is enough to confirm a judge.”
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Author: | Diamondeye [ Fri Nov 07, 2014 2:23 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: So like republicans win or something? |
Khross wrote: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/11/21/harry-reid-nuclear-senate/3662445/ Quote: Fifty-two Senate Democrats and independents voted to weaken the power of the filibuster. The change reduces the threshold from 60 votes to 51 votes for Senate approval of executive and judicial nominees against unanimous GOP opposition. Three Democrats — Sens. Mark Pryor of Arkansas, Joe Manchin of West Virginia and Carl Levin of Michigan — opposed the change. Senate Rule 22 was changed for nominations outside of the Supreme Court, effectively rescinding Rule 22.The rule change does not apply to Supreme Court nominees, who are still subject to a 60-vote filibuster threshold, or to legislation. You should really pay more attention, since this was discussed on these very forums. This change applies only to nominees other than Supreme Court nominees and does not apply to legislation. It does not "effectively rescind" rule 22, nor was it an action by Harry Reid. At most, it weakens rule 22. Pay attention. |
Author: | Rorinthas [ Fri Nov 07, 2014 5:30 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: So like republicans win or something? |
You've missed the point DE which is the dems don't have a leg to stand on while whining about what the reps might do |
Author: | Diamondeye [ Fri Nov 07, 2014 6:44 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: So like republicans win or something? |
Rorinthas wrote: You've missed the point DE which is the dems don't have a leg to stand on while whining about what the reps might do I was not contesting that point. I have no objection to changing Senate or House rules when there's bipartisan agreement that the rules are problematic or obsolete, but it should not be done by the party in power to make it easier to get its way. By the same token, the filibuster should be used sparingly. However, when one party controls both houses of Congress and the Presidency, the other party has little choice but to filibuster. |
Author: | Rorinthas [ Sat Nov 08, 2014 12:59 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: So like republicans win or something? |
Except both sides don't agree, at least not simultaneously |
Author: | Diamondeye [ Sat Nov 08, 2014 10:06 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: So like republicans win or something? |
Rorinthas wrote: Except both sides don't agree, at least not simultaneously Then that's a good indication not to mess around with the rules. |
Author: | Rorinthas [ Sun Nov 09, 2014 1:19 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: So like republicans win or something? |
Exactly |
Author: | TheRiov [ Sun Nov 09, 2014 2:39 pm ] |
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unless of course one side uses/abuses the rules disproportionally. How many nominees have been filibustered by the republicans in this presidency? Most of them were mostly just for spite. |
Author: | Rorinthas [ Sun Nov 09, 2014 3:19 pm ] |
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What about the rules against well poisoning hyperbole? What nominee has Obama wanted that he hasn't got? Also if we're going to talk about who dishes up strife and spite, I have two words: Clarence Thomas. |
Author: | Diamondeye [ Sun Nov 09, 2014 3:41 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: |
TheRiov wrote: unless of course one side uses/abuses the rules disproportionally. How many nominees have been filibustered by the republicans in this presidency? Most of them were mostly just for spite. Obviously only the minority side would be the one to filibuster, and therefore would use the rules "disproportionately". It isn't being done "out of spite" either. The House doesn't vote on Presidential appointments, and giving the sorts of people Obama has been appointing, filibustering them is not out of line. Saying it was done out of spite is just a cute way of saying "I don't agree with them, therefore they could not possibly have had any reason other than personal pettiness." |
Author: | TheRiov [ Sun Nov 09, 2014 4:41 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter ... have-been/ This is the updated graphic (not the original that was slightly incorrect in that it referred to cloture votes which can happen multiple times in a single nomination) http://www.dpcc.senate.gov/?p=blog&id=276 Quote: This matters because some of the nominations resulted in multiple cloture efforts. By our calculation, there were actually 68 individual nominees blocked prior to Obama taking office and 79 (so far) during Obama’s term, for a total of 147. THIS is why the 'nuclear' option was invoked. |
Author: | Rorinthas [ Sun Nov 09, 2014 5:23 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: So like republicans win or something? |
I really hope this thread is around in 4 years if the shoe is on the other foot Doing anything that affects the lives of power 300,000,000 plus people for decades should require the broadest of consenus . |
Author: | TheRiov [ Sun Nov 09, 2014 6:44 pm ] |
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ah. so now your argument has gone from 'your statement is hyperbole' and 'Obama got every nomination he wanted' to 'your side is going to do the same to us' a) moving the goalposts b) you have no evidence to support that statement. You'll forgive me if I don't base my view on policy based on your prognostication ability. c) Clarance Thomas was confirmed by a majority vote, cloture was never invoked, and he was never filibustered. Serious charges against him were investigated. d) many of these nominations were for judges affecting only a small portion of the country. |
Author: | Kaffis Mark V [ Sun Nov 09, 2014 8:19 pm ] |
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While not condoning abuse of filibuster on nominations, I feel it's worth pointing out that not all Presidents' appointments are equally offensive to reasonable opposition. Therefore, it's not outrageous to suggest that Republican obstinacy or spite might not be the sole causal factor, but that the statistics you're quoting could also be reminiscent of Obama's behavior, as well. I've done no extensive research to make a positive assertion, but the notion that those statistics prove anything is so fallacious that it bore mentioning. |
Author: | Xequecal [ Mon Nov 10, 2014 11:21 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: So like republicans win or something? |
The real problem is that the number of competitive Senate and House seats have become so low, that overall, a randomly selected Republican is more likely to have his seat taken by a Tea Party challenger in a primary election than by a Democrat in a general election. This problem doesn't exist at all on the left, Democratic incumbents losing the nomination are almost unheard of. Tea Party voters are notorious ideologues that hate even the idea of compromise. These are the people that actually wanted the federal government to default rather than give in on anything. So of course the Republicans are obstructing everything, if they don't they'll get replaced with someone who will. |
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