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The Law of Unintended Consequences
https://gladerebooted.net/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=11184
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Author:  Diamondeye [ Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:48 pm ]
Post subject:  The Law of Unintended Consequences

strikes again...

Quote:
A lot of schools spend countless hours trying to stop bullying. But some question if they are sending the right message.

It started as a simple look at bullying. University of Texas at Arlington criminologist Seokjin Jeong analyzed data collected from 7,000 students from all 50 states.

He thought the results would be predictable and would show that anti-bullying programs curb bullying. Instead — he found the opposite.

Jeong said it was, “A very disappointing and a very surprising thing. Our anti-bullying programs, either intervention or prevention does not work.”

The study concluded that students at schools with anti-bullying programs might actually be more likely to become a victim of bullying. It also found that students at schools with no bullying programs were less likely to become victims.

The results were stunning for Jeong. “Usually people expect an anti-bullying program to have some impact — some positive impact.”

The student videos used in many campaigns show examples of bullying and how to intervene. But Jeong says they may actually teach students different bullying techniques — and even educate about new ways to bully through social media and texting.

Jeong said students with ill intentions “…are able to learn, there are new techniques [and gain] new skills.” He says students might see examples in videos and then want to try it.

According to Jeong, some programs even teach students how to bully without leaving evidence behind. “This study raises an alarm,” he said. “There is a possibility of negative impact from anti-bullying programs.”

Jeong and others like him believe that until the message delivered by anti-bullying programs improves — some programs may be doing more harm than good.

Author:  TheRiov [ Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:59 pm ]
Post subject: 

The DARE programs didn't work either, and instead increased the incidence of drug use. Abstinence only sex-ed doesn't work either.

There are programs that do work, but they should be tested for efficacy before being fully implemented. Unfortunately human experimentation is sometimes hard to get approved and there's sometimes 10 years or more to determine if the program actually worked.

Author:  Diamondeye [ Wed Nov 12, 2014 3:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:

TheRiov wrote:
The DARE programs didn't work either, and instead increased the incidence of drug use. Abstinence only sex-ed doesn't work either.

There are programs that do work, but they should be tested for efficacy before being fully implemented. Unfortunately human experimentation is sometimes hard to get approved and there's sometimes 10 years or more to determine if the program actually worked.


In many cases, these sorts of programs tend not to work because they unintentionally make the behavior you're trying to discourage look more attractive. There is (I suspect) a similar effect in the military right now with the sexual assault prevention training - because it is a shotgun blast training based around the idea that people don't know what consent is, it's likely to actually teach rapists (who generally know precisely what is and isn't consent and really just don't care) how to avoid detection, reporting, or conviction more easily.

Author:  TheRiov [ Wed Nov 12, 2014 4:18 pm ]
Post subject: 

My wife's dissertation was actually on this topic. (specifically drug use prevention programs) I'll pick her brain for more information.

Author:  Talya [ Wed Nov 12, 2014 10:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Law of Unintended Consequences

This sounds like the "anti-" money laundering training at work. I now feel well qualified to hide the source of illicit funds. Now I just need some illicit funds...

Author:  shuyung [ Thu Nov 13, 2014 12:08 am ]
Post subject: 

Sounds like you need some anti-drug dealing training.

Author:  Diamondeye [ Thu Nov 13, 2014 11:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Law of Unintended Consequences

It's pretty much unavoidable that any training in how to detect covert illegal activity is going to make it easier to hide it. Generally you therefore don't want to give that training to people that don't actually need it. The same thing applies, actually to bullying. Assuming for the sake of argument that programs to discourage bullying worked, you'd want to give that to the kids. What you would not want to do is give them anything that explained how to detect bullying - you'd save that for the teachers and other staff.

That may be the source of the problem. Kids that are bullying sit through "Here's how you can tell if your classmate is the victim of bullying" and figure out not only that "hey, being a bully has its good points" but "here's how I can conceal it from the adults" so even if the training is having its intended effect, it might also be having an even stronger side effect making the problem worse.

Author:  Aizle [ Fri Nov 14, 2014 9:33 pm ]
Post subject: 

Personally, anti-bully campaigns need to be focused on detecting who is being bullied (teachers/parents) and then coaching those who are being bullied into how to face the bully.

The reality is that the world is full of bullies, K-12 is when you should learn how to deal with them, not adulthood. It's essentially the same with fighting. It's far healthier for kids to figure out that fighting sucks at 12 than at 21.

Author:  Arathain Kelvar [ Sun Nov 16, 2014 11:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re:

Aizle wrote:
Personally, anti-bully campaigns need to be focused on detecting who is being bullied (teachers/parents) and then coaching those who are being bullied into how to face the bully.

The reality is that the world is full of bullies, K-12 is when you should learn how to deal with them, not adulthood. It's essentially the same with fighting. It's far healthier for kids to figure out that fighting sucks at 12 than at 21.


Society likes to pretend that bullies are cowards who do not fight, and if you stand up to them they will back down. It's not really the case. If you stand up to them, odds are - you will get into a fight. This is not necessarily a problem, but an institutional program that can be viewed as basically encouraging confrontation - I see many potential problems. Encouraged victim gets pounded - lawsuit. Bully gets pounded - lawsuit. Something more serious happens, etc. While it may be a good idea, the bottom line is it's only a matter of time before we get a suboptimal result, and everything gets reversed.

Best hope for your program is "Dad", and a school system that does not punish those who stand up for themselves.

Author:  Diamondeye [ Sun Nov 16, 2014 11:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Re:

Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Aizle wrote:
Personally, anti-bully campaigns need to be focused on detecting who is being bullied (teachers/parents) and then coaching those who are being bullied into how to face the bully.

The reality is that the world is full of bullies, K-12 is when you should learn how to deal with them, not adulthood. It's essentially the same with fighting. It's far healthier for kids to figure out that fighting sucks at 12 than at 21.


Society likes to pretend that bullies are cowards who do not fight, and if you stand up to them they will back down. It's not really the case. If you stand up to them, odds are - you will get into a fight. This is not necessarily a problem, but an institutional program that can be viewed as basically encouraging confrontation - I see many potential problems. Encouraged victim gets pounded - lawsuit. Bully gets pounded - lawsuit. Something more serious happens, etc. While it may be a good idea, the bottom line is it's only a matter of time before we get a suboptimal result, and everything gets reversed.

Best hope for your program is "Dad", and a school system that does not punish those who stand up for themselves.


The reason for this is that society is half right. Bullies generally are cowards. The part they're wrong about is them backing down if you stand up to them. They don't do that. They pick their targets carefully; ones they know they can beat if there is a fight.

The other part is the trope of the "class bully" picking on all the other kids. Bullies tend to travel in groups, and they don't pick on the whole class. They tend to pick on a few select people no one else likes either. The remainder of the group, while they might not instigate anything, tends to tacitly back up the bully then because A) they're glad it's someone else on the receiving end, B) They really don't like the kid(s) getting picked on that much anyhow and/or C) they think being the bully isn't actually such a bad deal. You get to be the "coolest" kid in the class, at the cost of some occasional preaching from adults.

It's very very hard for adults to effectively combat this. One of the worst things adults do, though, is that they tend to talk about how other adults "got bullied as a kid" for whatever reason. Even assuming the other adult is doing something unacceptable, blaming it on him "Getting bullied as a kid", as if that bullying was his own fault is a terrible message to send to kids.

Author:  Rynar [ Sun Nov 16, 2014 5:47 pm ]
Post subject: 

The most effective anti-bullying platform I've ever seen is the one my middle school.

The entire student population was encouraged to collectively physically stomp on anyone who was bullying, and not only was this permitted, but rewarded.

Author:  Aizle [ Sun Nov 16, 2014 5:54 pm ]
Post subject: 

By facing the bully I do t necessarily mean fighting them. I more mean learning how to deal with the issue.

Author:  Diamondeye [ Sun Nov 16, 2014 10:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:

Aizle wrote:
By facing the bully I do t necessarily mean fighting them. I more mean learning how to deal with the issue.


And that would entail?....

I don't think anyone knows what this would actually involve that would be effective.

Author:  Lex Luthor [ Sun Nov 16, 2014 10:36 pm ]
Post subject: 

Kids only bully when they predict they can get away with the behavior. That is why there is no defense against bullying - it only happens when the bully is confident he can do it.

Author:  Vladimirr [ Mon Nov 17, 2014 11:15 am ]
Post subject: 

Waitaminute, telling teenagers not to do something makes them want to do it more?

I could have saved them a bunch of money on this study.

Author:  TheRiov [ Mon Nov 17, 2014 11:48 am ]
Post subject: 

http://www.gladerebooted.org/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=8248&p=193865#p193865 wrote:
My middle & high school had a fairly severe bullying problem. There were about 10 kids (Of which I was one) which were the perpetual target of bullying by just about everyone. (Yes, I got my butt handed to me by a girl at least once) I had my nose broken on 2 occasions. It was customary to punch the kids in the arm as hard a possible as a 'greeting' (My arms were perpetually black & blue )


That changed because of a single incident.

Near the beginning of my sophomore year in high school one of the kids had enough. When one of his tormentors began flicking him in the back of the head in the middle of class, he pulled out a thermos full of gasoline and poured it over the bully. He tried to light him on fire but couldn't get the lighter to light. He pulled out the handgun from his bag, jumped to the front of the class and after threatening to shoot the bully he put the gun to his own head and asked "Who wants to see a bloody mess?"

The teacher managed to talk him out into the hall and eventually convinced him to surrender his gun. There was a (local) media firestorm over the incident with a lot of focus on the fact that it was a bullied kid who was simply pushed too far.

I can't remember a single incident of bullying at my school after that.



Sometimes bullying can be ceased with one act. Not advocating it, just stating that it would be intellectually dishonest to deny the truth of it.

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