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The Nature of Pets, Livestock, and Property https://gladerebooted.net/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=11889 |
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Author: | Arathain Kelvar [ Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:59 am ] |
Post subject: | The Nature of Pets, Livestock, and Property |
I grew up on a farm, and we killed many animals. Some to eat, some because the were old/sick/injured, some due to overcrowding, and some due to threats to livestock. While the latter does not represent property, these were killed for protection of property. The method of slaughter was determined primarily by the size of the animal in question. The larger you were, the more likely you were to be shot. But we would not have thought twice about shooting an animal in the head to put it down. Nor would it have occurred to us to ask anyone's permission. http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/26/us/nc-veteran-kills-service-dog-trnd/index.html This couple was arrested for shooting their dog. I don't know the details of the situation, but tying a dog to a tree and shooting it in the head does not seem like an inhumane act, setting aside the question of whether dog must die. Thoughts on this? I don't think destroying your own property in a humane manner should be cause for arrest. |
Author: | Serienya [ Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:34 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Nature of Pets, Livestock, and Property |
Quote: The dog belonged to Rollins and was her emotional support animal, Sheriff's Sgt. Sean Swain told CNN. Clearly, she needed more support. I'm not sure you can set aside the question of whether the dog needed to die. They didn't shoot him to protect anyone or their livestock, or to save the animal suffering due to illness. In one of those scenarios, I can see shooting the dog being the least-bad option, as long as it's a clean kill, but in this case... |
Author: | Serienya [ Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:38 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Nature of Pets, Livestock, and Property |
Here is the local regulation: Quote: In addition to the foregoing provisions of this section, it shall be unlawful and constitute a public nuisance for any person to (1) willfully or maliciously overdrive, overload, torture, destroy or kill, or cruelly beat or injure, maim or mutilate, any animal in subjugation or captivity, whether wild or tame, and whether belonging to himself or to another, or (2) deprive any such animal of necessary food, drink or shelter; or (3) cause, procure or permit any such animal to be so overdriven, overloaded, tortured, destroyed or killed, or cruelly beaten or injured, maimed or mutilated, or deprived of necessary food, drink or shelter; or (4) willfully initiate, instigate, engage in, or in any way further any act of cruelty to any animal, or any act tending to produce such cruelty. Any law enforcement officer or Animal Control Officer finding an animal so maltreated or abused shall impound the animal, and the charges shall be assessed against the violator as a cost of abatement. http://www.co.cumberland.nc.us/animal_c ... tions.aspx |
Author: | Diamondeye [ Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:02 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Nature of Pets, Livestock, and Property |
Serienya wrote: Clearly, she needed more support. LOL I'm not entirely sure how I feel about the fundamental question, but I think in this case the reason for shooting the dog indicates mental problems best addressed with something other than a felony conviction. |
Author: | Arathain Kelvar [ Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:03 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Nature of Pets, Livestock, and Property |
Serienya wrote: Here is the local regulation: Quote: In addition to the foregoing provisions of this section, it shall be unlawful and constitute a public nuisance for any person to (1) willfully or maliciously overdrive, overload, torture, destroy or kill, or cruelly beat or injure, maim or mutilate, any animal in subjugation or captivity, whether wild or tame, and whether belonging to himself or to another, or (2) deprive any such animal of necessary food, drink or shelter; or (3) cause, procure or permit any such animal to be so overdriven, overloaded, tortured, destroyed or killed, or cruelly beaten or injured, maimed or mutilated, or deprived of necessary food, drink or shelter; or (4) willfully initiate, instigate, engage in, or in any way further any act of cruelty to any animal, or any act tending to produce such cruelty. Any law enforcement officer or Animal Control Officer finding an animal so maltreated or abused shall impound the animal, and the charges shall be assessed against the violator as a cost of abatement. http://www.co.cumberland.nc.us/animal_c ... tions.aspx That's an absolutely ridiculous statute. Not only is there no exception for protection of property (i.e. shooting a raccoon trying to steal your chickens), but there's no method to harvest a chicken, or put down an injured animal, or even go hunting. Hell, technically fishing would be against the law. I'm hoping that's not right. |
Author: | Arathain Kelvar [ Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:04 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Nature of Pets, Livestock, and Property |
Diamondeye wrote: Serienya wrote: Clearly, she needed more support. LOL I'm not entirely sure how I feel about the fundamental question, but I think in this case the reason for shooting the dog indicates mental problems best addressed with something other than a felony conviction. Totally. Clearly one emotional support dog wasn't enough. I recommend 2 next time. |
Author: | Diamondeye [ Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:58 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Nature of Pets, Livestock, and Property |
Arathain Kelvar wrote: That's an absolutely ridiculous statute. Not only is there no exception for protection of property (i.e. shooting a raccoon trying to steal your chickens), but there's no method to harvest a chicken, or put down an injured animal, or even go hunting. Hell, technically fishing would be against the law. I'm hoping that's not right. There's considerably more at the link, so that isn't the entire statute. I didn't bother to read all the provisions thought. Quote: Totally. Clearly one emotional support dog wasn't enough. I recommend 2 next time. No, no. A larger animal is what's called for. I think a support bear or perhaps a support cougar would be appropriate. |
Author: | Müs [ Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:06 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Nature of Pets, Livestock, and Property |
Diamondeye wrote: Arathain Kelvar wrote: That's an absolutely ridiculous statute. Not only is there no exception for protection of property (i.e. shooting a raccoon trying to steal your chickens), but there's no method to harvest a chicken, or put down an injured animal, or even go hunting. Hell, technically fishing would be against the law. I'm hoping that's not right. There's considerably more at the link, so that isn't the entire statute. I didn't bother to read all the provisions thought. Quote: Totally. Clearly one emotional support dog wasn't enough. I recommend 2 next time. No, no. A larger animal is what's called for. I think a support bear or perhaps a support cougar would be appropriate. Too small. We should strap her to a support Orca. |
Author: | Serienya [ Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:20 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
I'm all for that. |
Author: | Diamondeye [ Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:26 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Nature of Pets, Livestock, and Property |
I feel like we're being unfair to the Orca. |
Author: | Müs [ Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:40 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Nature of Pets, Livestock, and Property |
Diamondeye wrote: I feel like we're being unfair to the Orca. Orcas are merciless killers of the deep. They are not concerned with your human notions of "fairness" or "mercy" or even "humanity". Plus, the heinous ***** will make a good snack after she drowns and the dissolving restraints set her free. |
Author: | Diamondeye [ Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:44 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Nature of Pets, Livestock, and Property |
Müs wrote: Diamondeye wrote: I feel like we're being unfair to the Orca. Orcas are merciless killers of the deep. They are not concerned with your human notions of "fairness" or "mercy" or even "humanity". Plus, the heinous ***** will make a good snack after she drowns and the dissolving restraints set her free. They look pretty cuddly to me. Not sure what kind of weird Orcas YOU hang around with. |
Author: | Müs [ Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:47 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Nature of Pets, Livestock, and Property |
Diamondeye wrote: Müs wrote: Diamondeye wrote: I feel like we're being unfair to the Orca. Orcas are merciless killers of the deep. They are not concerned with your human notions of "fairness" or "mercy" or even "humanity". Plus, the heinous ***** will make a good snack after she drowns and the dissolving restraints set her free. They look pretty cuddly to me. Not sure what kind of weird Orcas YOU hang around with. They're far from cuddly. |
Author: | Diamondeye [ Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:51 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
Not if you're a seal |
Author: | Müs [ Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:18 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: |
Diamondeye wrote: Not if you're a seal Certainly these have nothing to fear. |
Author: | Taskiss [ Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:04 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Nature of Pets, Livestock, and Property |
Arathain Kelvar wrote: Thoughts on this? I don't think destroying your own property in a humane manner should be cause for arrest. We used to kill feral cats when the dogs would tree them and sit under the trees for days, then one day there was a feral cat that had a collar... We stopped after that. |
Author: | Müs [ Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:38 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Nature of Pets, Livestock, and Property |
Arathain Kelvar wrote: Thoughts on this? I don't think destroying your own property in a humane manner should be cause for arrest. What she did was not humane. There was no reason for the maltreatment and death of this animal. Aside from that, you are correct. |
Author: | Elmarnieh [ Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:13 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Nature of Pets, Livestock, and Property |
Is it both sentient and sapient? No. Is it your property? Yes. Do with it what you want. |
Author: | Amanar [ Fri Apr 28, 2017 5:04 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Nature of Pets, Livestock, and Property |
I think intent matters here. If she was trying to put down the dog because she thought it would be the best for it (even if she was wrong), then I would be okay from it. But from the description of the video, it sounds like it was done for fun as a source of entertainment. That's definitely not okay in my book. I'm fine giving a large benefit of the doubt to someone who shoots their pet because they think they had a good reason to, but in this case there's video evidence that clearly shows otherwise. Or at least that's how they describe it. I haven't watched the video or read anything about their defense, so who knows. |
Author: | Diamondeye [ Fri Apr 28, 2017 6:07 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Nature of Pets, Livestock, and Property |
I haven't watched the video because I really just don't want to, but reading the description in the article a second time it almost sounds like the boyfriend was pushing her to do it, perhaps exploiting her mental issues for his own reasons? Not that this necessarily excuses her; she hasn't been found incompetent or anything, but I do think it lends weight to the secondary issue of the outsize felony charge. |
Author: | Arathain Kelvar [ Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:19 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Nature of Pets, Livestock, and Property |
Müs wrote: Arathain Kelvar wrote: Thoughts on this? I don't think destroying your own property in a humane manner should be cause for arrest. What she did was not humane. There was no reason for the maltreatment and death of this animal. Aside from that, you are correct. Again, I'm not sure. Shooting the dog in the head is not inhumane. As for "no reason" - you may very well be right, but again - does that matter? If you believe your property should be destroyed, and you do it humanely, should the reason why you thought that really come into play? I put a dog to sleep a while back, and used a vet for this. If I had taken her out back and shot her, should that be illegal? |
Author: | Amanar [ Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:38 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Nature of Pets, Livestock, and Property |
Arathain Kelvar wrote: I put a dog to sleep a while back, and used a vet for this. If I had taken her out back and shot her, should that be illegal? If there was nothing wrong with the dog and you laughed while you shot her five times, and then let your friend shoot her another 5 times just for fun? Yes, that should probably be illegal. |
Author: | RangerDave [ Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:41 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Nature of Pets, Livestock, and Property |
Arathain Kelvar wrote: Müs wrote: Arathain Kelvar wrote: Thoughts on this? I don't think destroying your own property in a humane manner should be cause for arrest. What she did was not humane. There was no reason for the maltreatment and death of this animal. Aside from that, you are correct. Again, I'm not sure. Shooting the dog in the head is not inhumane. As for "no reason" - you may very well be right, but again - does that matter? If you believe your property should be destroyed, and you do it humanely, should the reason why you thought that really come into play? I put a dog to sleep a while back, and used a vet for this. If I had taken her out back and shot her, should that be illegal? First of all, condolences on your dog. I had to put mine down last fall, and I'm still **** wrecked over it. Anyway, to the discussion at hand.... I think there's an argument to be had about whether or not shooting a dog in the head is "humane" when the vet option is available. If it's a clean and immediate kill, maybe, but there's no guarantee of that. Setting that aside, though, there's a lot that goes into the question of whether the reasons for killing an animal matter. I believe they do, and I think your instinct that killing an animal should be done humanely is related. If the dog is purely just "property", why is there any obligation to treat it humanely? We don't worry about destroying a chair or other inanimate object that is our property, so why an animal? Obviously, it's because the animal is a living thing that's capable of suffering, and most people believe, as I do, that we have a moral duty not to kill or cause suffering needlessly. As the word "needlessly" indicates, that duty can be overridden if the reasons are compelling enough, and there's a sliding scale for that based on how sophisticated we think the animal is (and hence how much it loses by dying and how capable of suffering it is). Dogs and other domesticated animals are really high up on that spectrum, so killing them for shits and giggles is a violation of that moral duty. |
Author: | Diamondeye [ Fri Apr 28, 2017 10:14 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Nature of Pets, Livestock, and Property |
Also, before anyone else wigs out that RD said moral duty, it's your moral duty as codified to the best approximation of societal consensus the legislature could come up with. It doesn't break your rights to your property to make a law saying you must mitigate the suffering of that property, when that property is capable of suffering in the first place. I think the issue is the alarming circumstances of the shooting rather than the fact of it. |
Author: | Arathain Kelvar [ Fri Apr 28, 2017 12:33 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Nature of Pets, Livestock, and Property |
RangerDave wrote: Arathain Kelvar wrote: Müs wrote: Arathain Kelvar wrote: Thoughts on this? I don't think destroying your own property in a humane manner should be cause for arrest. What she did was not humane. There was no reason for the maltreatment and death of this animal. Aside from that, you are correct. Again, I'm not sure. Shooting the dog in the head is not inhumane. As for "no reason" - you may very well be right, but again - does that matter? If you believe your property should be destroyed, and you do it humanely, should the reason why you thought that really come into play? I put a dog to sleep a while back, and used a vet for this. If I had taken her out back and shot her, should that be illegal? First of all, condolences on your dog. I had to put mine down last fall, and I'm still **** wrecked over it. Anyway, to the discussion at hand.... I think there's an argument to be had about whether or not shooting a dog in the head is "humane" when the vet option is available. If it's a clean and immediate kill, maybe, but there's no guarantee of that. Setting that aside, though, there's a lot that goes into the question of whether the reasons for killing an animal matter. I believe they do, and I think your instinct that killing an animal should be done humanely is related. If the dog is purely just "property", why is there any obligation to treat it humanely? We don't worry about destroying a chair or other inanimate object that is our property, so why an animal? Obviously, it's because the animal is a living thing that's capable of suffering, and most people believe, as I do, that we have a moral duty not to kill or cause suffering needlessly. As the word "needlessly" indicates, that duty can be overridden if the reasons are compelling enough, and there's a sliding scale for that based on how sophisticated we think the animal is (and hence how much it loses by dying and how capable of suffering it is). Dogs and other domesticated animals are really high up on that spectrum, so killing them for shits and giggles is a violation of that moral duty. So much subjective in this. If it's a "clean kill" then maybe it's ok. Don't kill "needlessly". Reasons must be "compelling enough" "how sophisticated we think the animal is" Bottom line is that the "vet option" costs money, can extend suffering (assuming the vet's not a witness to whatever caused the suffering and standing there with all his gear). My dog, for example, suffered during the period of time that I took her to the vet, and waited for the vet to help out. Was the suffering excessive? I decided that it wasn't. Point is, though - MY decision. I'm not overly interested in the case I linked above - hopefully there's some reason beyond shits and giggles, but maybe not. They are clearly douche bags, whether the dog needed to be put down or not. But I do find the notion of being arrested for putting down an animal with a bullet to be somewhat concerning. |
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