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New Irish Blasphemy Law could cost you 35K
https://gladerebooted.net/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1305
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Author:  Adrak [ Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:02 pm ]
Post subject:  New Irish Blasphemy Law could cost you 35K

'Grossly abusive or insulting' comments can now result in $35,000 fine washingtonpost
Quote:
Atheists in Ireland are risking possible prosecution with an audacious online challenge to the country's new blasphemy law.

Under the law, which went into effect Friday, a person can be found guilty of blasphemy if "he or she publishes or utters matter that is grossly abusive or insulting in relation to matters held sacred by any religion, thereby causing outrage among a substantial number of the adherents of that religion."

The penalty is a fine of up to 25,000 euros, or more than $35,000.

In a bid to demonstrate that the law is outdated and largely unenforceable, a group named Atheist Ireland published on its Web site on Friday 25 potentially blasphemous quotations from figures such as Jesus Christ, Muhammad, George Carlin, Pope Benedict XVI and Mark Twain...


Can't say as I know anything about Ireland's laws but this seems unacceptable to me.

Author:  Micheal [ Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:24 pm ]
Post subject: 

Freedom of Speech is an American concept. It doesn't exist as we know it in most of the rest of the world. I am also not all that familiar with Ireland's laws, but find this to be pretty much reactionary to situations in the world today.

Their country, their laws, and their right to have them. I disagree with it, think they are being cowardly and stupid, but do not find it unacceptable.

Author:  Talya [ Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:49 pm ]
Post subject: 

Sodding micks.

Author:  Micheal [ Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:52 pm ]
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Yeah, we're all a bunch of potato eating, stout swilling, roughneck religious freaks, aren't we little Miss daughter of the old sod.

Author:  Slythe [ Sun Jan 03, 2010 6:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Irish Blasphemy Law could cost you 35K

I just love the last paragraph from your post -

Quote:
In a bid to demonstrate that the law is outdated and largely unenforceable, a group named Atheist Ireland published on its Web site on Friday 25 potentially blasphemous quotations from figures such as Jesus Christ, Muhammad, George Carlin, Pope Benedict XVI and Mark Twain...

Author:  Leshani [ Sun Jan 03, 2010 8:06 pm ]
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I think this could be fun, Christians publish something Blasphemous about Islam, Islam does the same we have a neat circle going, you can't give preferential treatment to either.

Author:  Corolinth [ Mon Jan 04, 2010 10:06 am ]
Post subject: 

Mark Twain is a cultural icon, but I don't know I'd consider him a religious figure.

Author:  Adrak [ Mon Jan 04, 2010 12:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:

Corolinth wrote:
Mark Twain is a cultural icon, but I don't know I'd consider him a religious figure.


I see he was included in a list of figures including George Carlin, not characterized as being a religious figure.

Author:  Monte [ Mon Jan 04, 2010 1:52 pm ]
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Ireland needs to shed it'd unfortunate predisposition towards theocracy. Laws like this are embarrassing for first world countries.

Author:  Ladas [ Mon Jan 04, 2010 2:19 pm ]
Post subject: 

Disrupting a religious services carries up to 3 years of jail in Germany, at least according to a recent article.

And I wouldn't say that Ireland has a "predisposition towards theocracy", but this law is a great example of overboard PC or liberalism.

Author:  Kaffis Mark V [ Mon Jan 04, 2010 4:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:

Monte wrote:
Ireland needs to shed it'd unfortunate predisposition towards theocracy. Laws like this are embarrassing for first world countries.

Theocracy? What religion controls Ireland's government? Show your work.

Now, show other examples of this "predisposition towards theocracy."

That's the most retarded statement I've ever heard.

Author:  Adrak [ Mon Jan 04, 2010 6:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:

Ladas wrote:
Disrupting a religious services carries up to 3 years of jail in Germany, at least according to a recent article.


So if I sit at home in the USA and plan a way of disrupting some procession fawning over a religious doo-dad I can expect Interpol to come and extradite me to Germany.

What intrigue!

Author:  Talya [ Mon Jan 04, 2010 10:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Re:

Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Monte wrote:
Ireland needs to shed it'd unfortunate predisposition towards theocracy. Laws like this are embarrassing for first world countries.

Theocracy? What religion controls Ireland's government? Show your work.

Now, show other examples of this "predisposition towards theocracy."

That's the most retarded statement I've ever heard.


For this purpose, you're right, this law doesn't show a whole lot of "predisposition towards theocracy," quite the opposite, really. However, overall, Montegue is right here. For instance, all forms of contraception were illegal until 1978, divorce was illegal until 1995, and abortion is still illegal. There is a strong (but waning) Catholic influence in Irish government.

Author:  Kaffis Mark V [ Tue Jan 05, 2010 9:23 am ]
Post subject: 

Okay, that's nice, Taly. The only one that I can attribute to religious influence is the contraception thing, though -- the rest of those positions are perfectly acceptable secular policies, on the face of it.

For instance, one does not require religious motivation to draw the arbitrary line in the sand on the concept of when life begins early enough to support the illegality of abortion.

Nor does one require religious conviction to refuse to acknowledge most divorces as a matter of contract law, I imagine.

And even so, you haven't demonstrated a causality between the Catholic church and any of those laws, so maintaining that there is a Catholic theocracy is really terrible logic. All you've done is present several laws which are frequently espoused by religious people (of no specific religion), and then observed that since the majority of Ireland is Catholic, it must be a theocratic situation.

By that logic, we have a theocracy because murder is illegal in America, and the prohibition of murder is one of the 10 Commandments recognized by the majority of our citizens (and certainly the majority of the Founding Fathers) to have been handed down by God to Moses.

Author:  Xequecal [ Tue Jan 05, 2010 9:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re:

Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Okay, that's nice, Taly. The only one that I can attribute to religious influence is the contraception thing, though -- the rest of those positions are perfectly acceptable secular policies, on the face of it.

For instance, one does not require religious motivation to draw the arbitrary line in the sand on the concept of when life begins early enough to support the illegality of abortion.

Nor does one require religious conviction to refuse to acknowledge most divorces as a matter of contract law, I imagine.


Failing to recognize divorces is most certainly about religion. What valid secular reason could there possibly be to forbid two people to dissolve a contract by mutual agreement? I could understand if it banned divorce when only one of the two people wanted one, but not one by mutual agreement.

Author:  Kaffis Mark V [ Tue Jan 05, 2010 9:30 am ]
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Granted, Xequecal. I said most. Most divorces are contested and dispute the terms. In such a situation, it's not a mutual agreement, right? And I don't have 15 year old Irish laws on hand to confirm that mutual divorces were illegal, nor did Taly provide them.

Author:  Kirra [ Tue Jan 05, 2010 9:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New Irish Blasphemy Law could cost you 35K

Slythe wrote:
I just love the last paragraph from your post -

Quote:
In a bid to demonstrate that the law is outdated and largely unenforceable, a group named Atheist Ireland published on its Web site on Friday 25 potentially blasphemous quotations from figures such as Jesus Christ, Muhammad, George Carlin, Pope Benedict XVI and Mark Twain...


lol George Carlin included with Christ, Muhammad and the Pope.

Love this!

Or it could be the nitrous affecting my sense of humor..

Author:  Talya [ Tue Jan 05, 2010 9:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re:

Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Nor does one require religious conviction to refuse to acknowledge most divorces as a matter of contract law, I imagine.


That's the thing, they wouldn't acknowledge that. Catholic decree on divorce was essentially law. There was no way to mutually dissolve such a contract. If you could convince the church to annul the marriage, you were okay, but other than that...forget it.

Quote:
And even so, you haven't demonstrated a causality between the Catholic church and any of those laws, so maintaining that there is a Catholic theocracy is really terrible logic.


I didn't call it a Catholic Theocracy. I said "There is a strong (but waning) Catholic influence in Irish government." While yes, Montegue called it a "predisposition towards theocracy," remember this is Montegue--he would consider Catholic laymen in government and Catholic laymen in the voting populace making Catholic principles into law as being akin to Theocracy, even if the church itself weren't involved at all.

As for abortion, objection to abortion is a fringe-fanatical view that is not common to most religions or even most of christianity, apart from Catholicism and a few fundamentalist groups. Civilized nations allow it, for the most part. That Ireland is a first world country and yet women still have to travel to England to get an abortion is laughable. And if you don't think that's the Catholic influence in the country, demographically, 73% of the Republic of Ireland is Roman Catholic. The influence is undeniable. Does that make it a Theocracy?

Well, technically, no. The Church can't make law in Ireland. It can just influence the people, and the people make law... which makes it a democratic republic, with a devout Catholic population making the law. Tyranny of the majority and all that.

Author:  Rafael [ Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Re:

Talya wrote:
Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Monte wrote:
Ireland needs to shed it'd unfortunate predisposition towards theocracy. Laws like this are embarrassing for first world countries.

Theocracy? What religion controls Ireland's government? Show your work.

Now, show other examples of this "predisposition towards theocracy."

That's the most retarded statement I've ever heard.


For this purpose, you're right, this law doesn't show a whole lot of "predisposition towards theocracy," quite the opposite, really. However, overall, Montegue is right here. For instance, all forms of contraception were illegal until 1978, divorce was illegal until 1995, and abortion is still illegal. There is a strong (but waning) Catholic influence in Irish government.


Yes, but there's still no reason to believe it's "embarassing". The only reason it's embarassing is if you are predisposed against religion to begin with, in which case, it's just an underhanded and thinly veiled cheap shot. Ultimately ironic considering its coming from a person who has such zeal and faith in the Religion of Science.

Author:  Talya [ Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Re:

Rafael wrote:
Yes, but there's still no reason to believe it's "embarassing". The only reason it's embarassing is if you are predisposed against religion to begin with, in which case, it's just an underhanded and thinly veiled cheap shot. Ultimately ironic considering its coming from a person who has such zeal and faith in the Religion of Science.



My internal glade-filter actually didn't even see the word "embarassing." There there was rare a nugget of truth contained in the underlying message of a hyperbolic statement, I had to point it out.

Author:  Müs [ Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New Irish Blasphemy Law could cost you 35K

Kirra wrote:
Slythe wrote:
I just love the last paragraph from your post -

Quote:
In a bid to demonstrate that the law is outdated and largely unenforceable, a group named Atheist Ireland published on its Web site on Friday 25 potentially blasphemous quotations from figures such as Jesus Christ, Muhammad, George Carlin, Pope Benedict XVI and Mark Twain...


lol George Carlin included with Christ, Muhammad and the Pope.

Love this!

Or it could be the nitrous affecting my sense of humor..


I'd convert to Carlinism :)

Its probably a lot like what I do now, but with more blasphemy and cynicism.

Author:  Diamondeye [ Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Re:

Xequecal wrote:
Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Okay, that's nice, Taly. The only one that I can attribute to religious influence is the contraception thing, though -- the rest of those positions are perfectly acceptable secular policies, on the face of it.

For instance, one does not require religious motivation to draw the arbitrary line in the sand on the concept of when life begins early enough to support the illegality of abortion.

Nor does one require religious conviction to refuse to acknowledge most divorces as a matter of contract law, I imagine.


Failing to recognize divorces is most certainly about religion. What valid secular reason could there possibly be to forbid two people to dissolve a contract by mutual agreement? I could understand if it banned divorce when only one of the two people wanted one, but not one by mutual agreement.


Harm to the children.

Yes, I understand perfectly well it's a shitty reason. That doesn't, however, mean that it is not secular. The degree to which a law is religious in motivation or secular in motivation has nothing to do with it's merit. A law does not need a valid secular reason to be non-religious, just some sort of secular reason.

This is why the courts have ruled that "Blue Laws" are (generally) legal here in the U.S.; the state can have an interest in promoting a day of rest that has nothing to do with religious observance. We can argue all day about whether the state should do so, but the fact remains that just because a laws is stupid, unnecessary, or absurd does not mean it's in any way religious, even if it bears a resemblance to the imaginings of some as to what religious laws might be like.

In any case, neither this law, that on abortion, that on contraception, or any similar law is "theocracy". That's like calling rude sexual advances rape. Ireland is governed by a democratically elected goverment. No church has any official power in its government.

Greece officially recognizes Greek Orthodoxy as the prevailing religion in the country, and has a political party called the "Popular Orthodox Rally". Yet no one ever talks about any Greek "tendancy towards theocracy". In part, this si because the greek Constitution guarantees freedom of religion to all.

The term Thoecracy does not mean "any religious intrusion into government or public policy of any kind."

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