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Tax adjustments for Cost of Living? https://gladerebooted.net/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1586 |
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Author: | Hopwin [ Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:46 pm ] |
Post subject: | Tax adjustments for Cost of Living? |
Article about Obama failing the middle class, blah blah. http://wcbstv.com/politics/barack.obama ... 50735.html What caught my eye is the idea some Republicans are floating that if you live in an expensive area you should pay less in taxes: Quote: "No, I don't see any real relief coming from Barack Obama to the middle class. I think he is still on a very liberal agenda. He's mouthing some words which maybe will play in some states but his policies are devastating to New York," Rep. Peter King said. Congressman King said one thing that would help taxpayers in our area is a cost of living adjustment on federal taxes that takes into account how expensive it is to live here. "If he's serious about the middle class there should be an allocation or adjustment made for people living in a high-income area, high-expense area, high cost of living area," the Republican from Long Island said. New Yorkers seem to agree. "Who wouldn't like to have some extra help in a place that's really expensive?" asked Tom Falcone of Queens. Really? In a high-income, high-expense area they should pay less in taxes? Wow... |
Author: | Khross [ Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:52 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Tax adjustments for Cost of Living? |
Hopwin: Let's say you make $65,000 a year where I keep my weekend home. Let's say you make $65,000 a year in Atlanta. Who has a better quality of life? |
Author: | darksiege [ Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:57 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Tax adjustments for Cost of Living? |
Khross wrote: Hopwin: Let's say you make $65,000 a year where I keep my weekend home. Let's say you make $65,000 a year in Atlanta. Who has a better quality of life? That depends on where you keep your weekend home... if you keep a weekend home here in Vegas at Bonanza and Martin Luther King Drive... not a great example. If you keep a weekend home on Park Avenue... probably a decent example |
Author: | Hopwin [ Wed Jan 27, 2010 1:02 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Tax adjustments for Cost of Living? |
Khross wrote: Hopwin: Let's say you make $65,000 a year where I keep my weekend home. Let's say you make $65,000 a year in Atlanta. Who has a better quality of life? You are ignoring the bolded statement about incomes above. My company does business in all states and we have a geographic modifier to take into account cost of living. Ohio is our base rate with a 1.0 factor, NYC is our highest with a 1.35 factor and I want to say GA is our lowest at .85. If the cost of living is high, wages are naturally higher to compensate so your analogy above is false. |
Author: | Diamondeye [ Wed Jan 27, 2010 1:10 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Tax adjustments for Cost of Living? |
Hopwin wrote: Khross wrote: Hopwin: Let's say you make $65,000 a year where I keep my weekend home. Let's say you make $65,000 a year in Atlanta. Who has a better quality of life? You are ignoring the bolded statement about incomes above. My company does business in all states and we have a geographic modifier to take into account cost of living. Ohio is our base rate with a 1.0 factor, NYC is our highest with a 1.35 factor and I want to say GA is our lowest at .85. If the cost of living is high, wages are naturally higher to compensate so your analogy above is false. As long as we work for your company, sure. |
Author: | darksiege [ Wed Jan 27, 2010 1:11 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Tax adjustments for Cost of Living? |
Hopwin wrote: You are ignoring the bolded statement about incomes above. My company does business in all states and we have a geographic modifier to take into account cost of living. Ohio is our base rate with a 1.0 factor, NYC is our highest with a 1.35 factor and I want to say GA is our lowest at .85. If the cost of living is high, wages are naturally higher to compensate so your analogy above is false. That is not the case with all companies though. My company for example, has not provided cost of living increases in two years. |
Author: | Khross [ Wed Jan 27, 2010 1:11 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Tax adjustments for Cost of Living? |
Hopwin: Really? It's false? Based on what? They make better wages? Too bad your anecdote disproves your theory, since the cost of living in NYC generally exceeds 135% of Cleveland, Ohio. And the wage differential doesn't account for taxation differences and increases at local, state, and federal level, because they are tied to gross income, not the living costs associated with where ever that job happens to be. DS: I thought it was pretty common knowledge that my weekend home is in a rural town with less than 20,000 people. |
Author: | Hopwin [ Wed Jan 27, 2010 1:31 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Tax adjustments for Cost of Living? |
Khross wrote: Hopwin: Really? It's false? Based on what? They make better wages? Too bad your anecdote disproves your theory, since the cost of living in NYC generally exceeds 135% of Cleveland, Ohio. And the wage differential doesn't account for taxation differences and increases at local, state, and federal level, because they are tied to gross income, not the living costs associated with where ever that job happens to be. DS: I thought it was pretty common knowledge that my weekend home is in a rural town with less than 20,000 people. Yes Khross, it is false. Unless you are seriously going to try to say people in NYC & San Diego don't have a higher wage than those in Missouri, Kentucky and Idaho? If you are going to try I am sure I can locate some tax tables for you... While wages may not perfectly offset the higher cost of living you are ignoring the opportunity gains you have by living in such an area (or if you prefer the opportunity costs you pay for living in the mid-west). You are also ignoring the obvious fact that high-income, high-expense areas = rich neighborhoods. |
Author: | Diamondeye [ Wed Jan 27, 2010 1:33 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Tax adjustments for Cost of Living? |
Hopwin wrote: Khross wrote: Hopwin: Really? It's false? Based on what? They make better wages? Too bad your anecdote disproves your theory, since the cost of living in NYC generally exceeds 135% of Cleveland, Ohio. And the wage differential doesn't account for taxation differences and increases at local, state, and federal level, because they are tied to gross income, not the living costs associated with where ever that job happens to be. DS: I thought it was pretty common knowledge that my weekend home is in a rural town with less than 20,000 people. Yes Khross, it is false. Unless you are seriously going to try to say people in NYC & San Diego don't have a higher wage than those in Missouri, Kentucky and Idaho? If you are going to try I am sure I can locate some tax tables for you... While wages may not perfectly offset the higher cost of living you are ignoring the opportunity gains you have by living in such an area (or if you prefer the opportunity costs you pay for living in the mid-west). You are also ignoring the obvious fact that high-income, high-expense areas = rich neighborhoods. What opportunity gains and losses are you referring to? |
Author: | Elmarnieh [ Wed Jan 27, 2010 1:33 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
Because we all know that all of New York City's residents get paid a high income, that is why no one is poor there. |
Author: | Khross [ Wed Jan 27, 2010 1:34 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Tax adjustments for Cost of Living? |
Hopwin: I'm not ignoring anything at all. I don't think you know what constitutes rich, poor, or the relative purchasing power based on actual cost of living. Your own company underpays its NYC employees; and it's better than most. |
Author: | Rafael [ Wed Jan 27, 2010 1:35 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
Whether I live in PA or MD, I get paid the same. Whether I move to a plant in Illinois or to expensive *** Tom's River, NJ, I'll get paid the same. I believe you'll find the policy for such things is largely company to company. Khross: I don't argue your point is invalid, that quality of life depends greatly on the cost of living in a given area. However, I don't believe you support capital controls, either. So what exactly is your contention? |
Author: | Rafael [ Wed Jan 27, 2010 1:39 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Tax adjustments for Cost of Living? |
Diamondeye wrote: What opportunity gains and losses are you referring to? I would like to know as well. There seems to be a sentiment pervading those who live on the coasts that the middle of the country is some sort of **** wasteland. The opportunity to experience a more diverse culture, as unassimilated, "FOB" immigrants tend to congregate in either Southern Cal, Miami or the Tri-state area. Perhaps that's what he means. I would say the opportunity costs paying nearly several times in property prices and other expenses associated with living on either coast far dominates any perceived benefits. |
Author: | Khross [ Wed Jan 27, 2010 1:44 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Tax adjustments for Cost of Living? |
Rafael: Well, the notion of what constitutes the "Middle Class" in the United States continues to be terribly inaccurate according to both historical and economic models. That said, a "high-income" does not invariably relate to a better stand of living or higher relative purchasing power based on the micro-economics involved. My 800 square foot loft apartment in Atlanta cost me $1400 a month when I was attending Emory many ages ago. I can buy a 3000 square foot house where my weekend home is for $600 a month. And a lot of examples are more dramatic than that when it comes to the disparity in income and actual economic power. Indeed, this is probably one of the few cases where macro-economic averaging is useful, because it can be used to show disproportionate taxes and the cost of living are relative to average income. |
Author: | Diamondeye [ Wed Jan 27, 2010 1:48 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Tax adjustments for Cost of Living? |
Rafael wrote: Diamondeye wrote: What opportunity gains and losses are you referring to? I would like to know as well. There seems to be a sentiment pervading those who live on the coasts that the middle of the country is some sort of **** wasteland. The opportunity to experience a more diverse culture, as unassimilated, "FOB" immigrants tend to congregate in either Southern Cal, Miami or the Tri-state area. Perhaps that's what he means. I would say the opportunity costs paying nearly several times in property prices and other expenses associated with living on either coast far dominates any perceived benefits. I think that's what's going on as well. It seems to me to be a sentiment of "there's more to do in big cities". That ma be strictly true in terms of a greater variety of activities, but its sort of useless to define "opportunity" as "things its possible to do". I may have a much greater opportunity to buy crack in NYC but it's hardly an "opportunity cost" to me if I'm in the country to not have that available. The opportunity cost of living in the country or benefit of the city or vice versa really depends on the individual and their desire or need to engage in certain activities. If I want to hunt, living in NYC is a cost and living in rural Wyoming is a benefit. There's also the fact that there are decent-sized cities in the middle of the country such as Omaha which, while perhaps not as cosmopolitain as NYC, certainly allow one to have an urban center nearby while living in a much more rural sort of area. |
Author: | Xequecal [ Wed Jan 27, 2010 1:50 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Tax adjustments for Cost of Living? |
Hopwin: You grossly underestimate how expensive New York City is. For example, if you live in midtown Manhattan, $250k a year with a spouse and two dependents is basically poverty. This is an area where a tiny one-person studio apartment costs over $5000/month to rent. |
Author: | Hopwin [ Wed Jan 27, 2010 2:12 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
The disparity isn't as wide as I originally thought: Average wage in NYC: $46,000 Average wage in Cleveland: $40,000 Average wage in Atlanta: $41,000 I found a few calculators that guesstimate the amount of money needed to maintain your lifestyle but their results vary widely. So instead I am trying to use the CPI as a substitute. According to the BLS the CPI for the midwest is 202.527 and for the northeast it is 229.343 (all results 2009). As to the opportunity costs, NYC is the financial mecca (or at least has traditionally been) of the world for the past century. Cleveland? Well take a look. How does New York stack up? Those are opportunity costs. |
Author: | Rafael [ Wed Jan 27, 2010 2:30 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
Ok, and? Those links don't demonstrate that there's a significant opportunity cost as far as career development is concerned for living in the Midwest. Do many people not relocate where their job takes them? It may be that once people's career develop to a certain point, that they moved to NYC from other places. It would be a fallacy, therefore, to assume that their career developed solely based on being located in NYC from the start. |
Author: | darksiege [ Wed Jan 27, 2010 2:49 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Tax adjustments for Cost of Living? |
Khross wrote: Hopwin: Really? It's false? Based on what? They make better wages? Too bad your anecdote disproves your theory, since the cost of living in NYC generally exceeds 135% of Cleveland, Ohio. And the wage differential doesn't account for taxation differences and increases at local, state, and federal level, because they are tied to gross income, not the living costs associated with where ever that job happens to be. DS: I thought it was pretty common knowledge that my weekend home is in a rural town with less than 20,000 people. yeah; I had no frikking clue. |
Author: | Hopwin [ Wed Jan 27, 2010 3:06 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: |
Rafael wrote: Do many people not relocate where their job takes them? It may be that once people's career develop to a certain point, that they moved to NYC from other places. It would be a fallacy, therefore, to assume that their career developed solely based on being located in NYC from the start. That's pretty much the point I was making Rafael, thanks for summing it up for me so succintly. Yes you can take your career so far before you must relocate to a larger market. |
Author: | Rafael [ Wed Jan 27, 2010 3:11 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
"Must" relocate implies a condition where your argument is always correct - it's a fallacy by assertion. The fact that there happens to be a lot of people in Manhattan or the greater Tri-State area who relocated to further career simply does not mean that in order to further ones career, one must move there. In fact, if a higher percentage of people living there relocated specifically for their careers, it seems to downplay other aspects for moving there which could be taken to imply that there are very few other merits for living there other than one's career. In either case, this supposed opportunity cost associated with not living there has yet to be established. |
Author: | Talya [ Wed Jan 27, 2010 3:22 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Tax adjustments for Cost of Living? |
Hopwin wrote: My company does business in all states and we have a geographic modifier to take into account cost of living. Ohio is our base rate with a 1.0 factor, NYC is our highest with a 1.35 factor and I want to say GA is our lowest at .85. If the cost of living is high, wages are naturally higher to compensate so your analogy above is false. Wages are might be higher, but tax brackets don't change. If you make $50,000 a year and live comfortably in Ohio, you could make $120,000 a year in Silicon Valley and not be able to pay your rent. Nevertheless, you're still paying far more in federal taxes living in Silicon Valley. |
Author: | Hopwin [ Wed Jan 27, 2010 3:42 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: |
Rafael wrote: In fact, if a higher percentage of people living there relocated specifically for their careers, it seems to downplay other aspects for moving there which could be taken to imply that there are very few other merits for living there other than one's career. I am confused. An opportunity cost is a benefit I could receive but chose to forgo. Career advancement opportunities, a broader job market and higher wages would fall into this category... are you saying there are other opportunity costs such as social status, networking and "city life" or are you saying these benefits are non-existant? |
Author: | Khross [ Wed Jan 27, 2010 3:45 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Tax adjustments for Cost of Living? |
Hopwin: You really don't get it, do you? CPI for the Entire Northeast doesn't cover the disparity between Manhattan and Hell's Kitchen. And comparing Atlanta, Cleveland, and NYC is kind of silly, since Atlanta is the fastest growing city in the nation and Cleveland suffers from a whole slew of problems caused by dumping its industrial based. Even then, if you think $46,000 a year is enough to live on in New York City, you're sorely mistaken. A friend of mine just took $190k a year in St. Paul over $390k a year in NYC, because he'd be able to save ~$60k more a year in St. Paul than NYC. Real Cost of Living is not region average CPI. |
Author: | Ladas [ Wed Jan 27, 2010 3:46 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
Hi unconstitutional. |
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